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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Brys" data-source="post: 5447827" data-attributes="member: 80979">While it's not fun as a player if the DM tries to invalidate your schtick, it doesn't hurt to throw curveballs occasionally.  If anything, this highlights how effective their build normally is.  It may just be a matter of upping the power level of the enemy (higher level, or more enemies - be careful before doing both).  What level encounters are you throwing at them?  Is it a matter of them working well together?  If your party built for team optimization and works well together, that can be tough to get past.Here's what I found in my play experience: when PCs get to this level, they have so many options that there is a short discussion before each persons turn.  This allowed for optimal tactics and REALLY slowed the game down.  I'd frequently go refill my drink or grab a snack between player turns and not miss a thing.  Once I started getting bored, I put them on a clock.  The whole round is supposed to last 6 seconds.  To simulate the confusion of battle, they would have 20 seconds between when I said it was their turn and them rolling dice.  I didn't ever penalize them for taking too long, but having a deadline sped things up made combat more chaotic.  More chaotic meant less formulaic and thus more interesting for me.  They were still mopping up, but it wasn't as clean each time.Use waves.  If the battle is going too easily, bring in a back-up group of enemies.  Not too many, but enough to be a concern.  Monsters usually get wiped at this level because the PCs get many more actions than the monsters (due to minor attacks, action points, move action attacks, triggered attacks, etc.).  Even that up by adding more monsters.Force the issue with the short workday.  At that level, they have enough dallies that they can use one each battle.  My PCs were trying to get an extended rest as soon as someone ran out of dallies.  It wasn't until I forced them to push through it that they started getting challenged.  Monsters are built to die in one battle.  PCs are built to be at risk of death over the course of a day.  It's not the first battle that's the real danger.  It's the last battle of the day (provided the rest were challenging enough that they spent dallies and used surges).  Don't let them rest before they get to that last battle.  My PCs enjoyed it because they could still feel uber-powerful in the early battles but were still challenged in the later ones without me needing to make every fight a TPK risk.Edit: Just wanted to stress: it's okay to let them mop up occasionally (I try for once per meeting) so that they get joy out of their powers.  But they (or you) will get bored with that if they start feeling invincible.  Your fun matters too.  If that only comes by putting the PCs in jeopardy - do it.  Just be aware they may not want you to DM if they pick up that you don't have fun unless one of them dies.</blockquote>

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