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DM Help! My rogue always spams Hide as a bonus action, and i cant target him!
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<blockquote data-quote="Xetheral" data-source="post: 6951386" data-attributes="member: 6802765"><p>Flamestrike,</p><p> </p><p>I find your plain-English/common-sense analysis unpersuasive because you appear to be using a definition of “hidden” that I consider neither plain nor common.</p><p> </p><p>In my experience, a person is “hidden” in common parlance when the hider has tried to conceal themselves and has successfully prevented potential observers from sensing them. That’s it. You’re adding in a third requirement that observers must also lack knowledge of the hider’s location. That additional requirement seems entirely superfluous and is not in keeping with how I understand the plain-English meaning of the concept.</p><p> </p><p>Considering the hiding-in-a-box example, if a person climbs into a box and closes it, and then successfully remains still so as not to jostle the box and quiets their breathing to inaudible levels, then under the plain-English meaning of the term, they are indeed hidden from any observers, even those who know where the hider is. (The hider is, of course, hidden unwisely.) Similarly, someone who strolls casually out of sight behind a tree, and then while unobserved flattens themselves against the trunk and stills their breathing, preventing observers from sensing them, is indeed hidden, even if it’s the only tree for miles.</p><p> </p><p>In short, as I understand the plain meaning of “hidden”, knowledge of a hider’s location, or lack thereof, has nothing to do with whether that person is hidden. If you try to hide from me and I can't sense you, you're hidden from me, even if I know exactly where you must be.</p><p> </p><p>As evidence supporting my claim that mine is the more natural reading, I recommend reading the Wikipedia article on object permanence. In the section on “Stages” the authors repeatedly use the word “hidden” to refer to the test objects concealed from the child. This fits my definition: the object has been concealed by the tester and cannot be sensed by the child, and so is hidden, whether or not the child passes the test. If the authors were using your definition, then the term “hidden” could only be used in cases where the child failed the test. In general, one speaks of Object Permanence as the ability to know where hidden objects are, <em>not</em> as the ability to prevent them from being hidden in the first place.</p><p> </p><p>My evidence is certainly not conclusive, and it may be that due to regional or other differences, the word “hidden” has a different plain meaning for you than it does for me. That’s fine. But your appeals to plain-meaning and common-sense are unpersuasive when those who you are trying to convince disagree with you about the plain meanings of the words under discussion.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Xetheral, post: 6951386, member: 6802765"] Flamestrike, I find your plain-English/common-sense analysis unpersuasive because you appear to be using a definition of “hidden” that I consider neither plain nor common. In my experience, a person is “hidden” in common parlance when the hider has tried to conceal themselves and has successfully prevented potential observers from sensing them. That’s it. You’re adding in a third requirement that observers must also lack knowledge of the hider’s location. That additional requirement seems entirely superfluous and is not in keeping with how I understand the plain-English meaning of the concept. Considering the hiding-in-a-box example, if a person climbs into a box and closes it, and then successfully remains still so as not to jostle the box and quiets their breathing to inaudible levels, then under the plain-English meaning of the term, they are indeed hidden from any observers, even those who know where the hider is. (The hider is, of course, hidden unwisely.) Similarly, someone who strolls casually out of sight behind a tree, and then while unobserved flattens themselves against the trunk and stills their breathing, preventing observers from sensing them, is indeed hidden, even if it’s the only tree for miles. In short, as I understand the plain meaning of “hidden”, knowledge of a hider’s location, or lack thereof, has nothing to do with whether that person is hidden. If you try to hide from me and I can't sense you, you're hidden from me, even if I know exactly where you must be. As evidence supporting my claim that mine is the more natural reading, I recommend reading the Wikipedia article on object permanence. In the section on “Stages” the authors repeatedly use the word “hidden” to refer to the test objects concealed from the child. This fits my definition: the object has been concealed by the tester and cannot be sensed by the child, and so is hidden, whether or not the child passes the test. If the authors were using your definition, then the term “hidden” could only be used in cases where the child failed the test. In general, one speaks of Object Permanence as the ability to know where hidden objects are, [I]not[/I] as the ability to prevent them from being hidden in the first place. My evidence is certainly not conclusive, and it may be that due to regional or other differences, the word “hidden” has a different plain meaning for you than it does for me. That’s fine. But your appeals to plain-meaning and common-sense are unpersuasive when those who you are trying to convince disagree with you about the plain meanings of the words under discussion. [/QUOTE]
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DM Help! My rogue always spams Hide as a bonus action, and i cant target him!
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