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DM Help! My rogue always spams Hide as a bonus action, and i cant target him!
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<blockquote data-quote="Flamestrike" data-source="post: 6951495" data-attributes="member: 6788736"><p>The 5E PHB expressly was written to stray away from rules jargon, and to use plain English language wherever possible.</p><p></p><p>And we <em>are </em>talking about what hiding in reality really means. We are straying from 'rules jargon' and into plain english. Hence why the same paragraph 'you cant hide when being watched' also carries the sentence 'the DM decides when you can hide'.</p><p></p><p>In other words the rules are not 'you must [move X squares] and [take Y action] on [your turn] to hide'. The 'rules' are 'You cant hide when a creature is observing you, and your DM has the call on when you can hide or not'</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No, you're just interpreting a paragraph of text in a gamist fashion. If thats the interpretation and playstyle that works for you (break LOS and mash the 'Hide action' button) then go nuts. It does have the advantage of being black and white in application, even if it does lead to absolutely absurd results.</p><p></p><p>The 'rule' is also written in a manner that supports a normal, common sense, plain english simulationist interpretation. The one I prefer. An interpretation of (If a creature sees you go into hiding, you cant hide from that creature). Its less black and white that the gamist interpretation, and requires more DM judgement on when a creature can be considered 'hidden' or not, but it avoids absurdities like 'Jack in the Box' rogue, or being 'hidden but not really hidden' in addition to giving meaning to what the Hide action represents.</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>No. There is no rule of 'move X' distance after concealing your location with 'X' being the switch that allows the Hide action. Its a question of common sense and citrcumstances, not a formulaic rules question.</p><p></p><p>If the circumstances are such that I the DM decide it is possible for the creature seeking to hide to be able to make his location or presence sufficiently unknown or imprecise (become hidden) then that is all it requires. (Remember the paragraph in the rules we are discussing here also states 'The DM decides when you can hide'). If a creature is watching you go into hiding, this generally ruins the hide attempt. If it's feasable that you can make your position unknown despite being seen trying (you're ducking down into a large field of long grass, or you're backing off into a large magically darkened room) then you can attempt to hide notwithstanding this.</p><p></p><p>Its not rocket science. Just common sense.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And how are you doing that (prevented me from sensing you) inside your box I saw you climb into? I sense you are in the box just fine, as I saw you go in it and close the lid.</p><p></p><p>And why do you have to wait until the lid is closed to do it?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No mate, thats what hidden means in this context. If I know where you are with sufficient precision (and are objectively correct in that knowledge) you are not hidden from me.</p><p></p><p>Hidden is not just a quality of the person hiding, its also a statement of the <em>state of mind of the observer</em>. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No, the person in the box is not hidden from the observer. The observer knows where they are (and is objectively correct in that knowledge) regardless of what the person does after climining into the box. The presence and location of the person in the box is known and (objectively) correct.</p><p></p><p>Contrast with their friend who left the room containing the observer, the box and the person in it,<em> ceased being observed,</em> moved down a hallway quietly, into one of four bedrooms of the house, and quietly crawled under a bed to hide.</p><p></p><p>Assuming this is a game of hide and seek, relative to 'the Seeker' (our observer in the room containing the box) - which of the two is hidden? </p><p></p><p>Who does he have to actively search for?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You mean a box with a hidden trapdoor? Already discussed. Of course you can hide using a secret trapdoor in a box. You can (using the trapdoor) make your position sufficiently unknown by moving elsewhere while not being watched and attempt the Hide action.</p><p></p><p>In fact, thats what makes the trick a trick.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Flamestrike, post: 6951495, member: 6788736"] The 5E PHB expressly was written to stray away from rules jargon, and to use plain English language wherever possible. And we [I]are [/I]talking about what hiding in reality really means. We are straying from 'rules jargon' and into plain english. Hence why the same paragraph 'you cant hide when being watched' also carries the sentence 'the DM decides when you can hide'. In other words the rules are not 'you must [move X squares] and [take Y action] on [your turn] to hide'. The 'rules' are 'You cant hide when a creature is observing you, and your DM has the call on when you can hide or not' No, you're just interpreting a paragraph of text in a gamist fashion. If thats the interpretation and playstyle that works for you (break LOS and mash the 'Hide action' button) then go nuts. It does have the advantage of being black and white in application, even if it does lead to absolutely absurd results. The 'rule' is also written in a manner that supports a normal, common sense, plain english simulationist interpretation. The one I prefer. An interpretation of (If a creature sees you go into hiding, you cant hide from that creature). Its less black and white that the gamist interpretation, and requires more DM judgement on when a creature can be considered 'hidden' or not, but it avoids absurdities like 'Jack in the Box' rogue, or being 'hidden but not really hidden' in addition to giving meaning to what the Hide action represents. No. There is no rule of 'move X' distance after concealing your location with 'X' being the switch that allows the Hide action. Its a question of common sense and citrcumstances, not a formulaic rules question. If the circumstances are such that I the DM decide it is possible for the creature seeking to hide to be able to make his location or presence sufficiently unknown or imprecise (become hidden) then that is all it requires. (Remember the paragraph in the rules we are discussing here also states 'The DM decides when you can hide'). If a creature is watching you go into hiding, this generally ruins the hide attempt. If it's feasable that you can make your position unknown despite being seen trying (you're ducking down into a large field of long grass, or you're backing off into a large magically darkened room) then you can attempt to hide notwithstanding this. Its not rocket science. Just common sense. And how are you doing that (prevented me from sensing you) inside your box I saw you climb into? I sense you are in the box just fine, as I saw you go in it and close the lid. And why do you have to wait until the lid is closed to do it? No mate, thats what hidden means in this context. If I know where you are with sufficient precision (and are objectively correct in that knowledge) you are not hidden from me. Hidden is not just a quality of the person hiding, its also a statement of the [I]state of mind of the observer[/I]. No, the person in the box is not hidden from the observer. The observer knows where they are (and is objectively correct in that knowledge) regardless of what the person does after climining into the box. The presence and location of the person in the box is known and (objectively) correct. Contrast with their friend who left the room containing the observer, the box and the person in it,[I] ceased being observed,[/I] moved down a hallway quietly, into one of four bedrooms of the house, and quietly crawled under a bed to hide. Assuming this is a game of hide and seek, relative to 'the Seeker' (our observer in the room containing the box) - which of the two is hidden? Who does he have to actively search for? You mean a box with a hidden trapdoor? Already discussed. Of course you can hide using a secret trapdoor in a box. You can (using the trapdoor) make your position sufficiently unknown by moving elsewhere while not being watched and attempt the Hide action. In fact, thats what makes the trick a trick. [/QUOTE]
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