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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Flamestrike" data-source="post: 6953228" data-attributes="member: 6788736">Why do I need to sense them once they're in there? I know they're in there because I sensed them getting in.My senses have informed my knowledge. And its my knowledge that matters. Remember, whether you're hidden relative to me depends on my state of mind. If I know where you are (and am objectively correct in that knowledge) then you are not hidden from me.Heck; I could rely on someone elses senses (they percieve you, and then they tell me where you are) to render you no longer hidden.If my knowledge of where you are doesnt match the objective reality (i.e. if you used a secret door to escape once inside the box) then you can be (and likely are) hidden from me.Dont take this the wrong way, but go back and read the thread. Its been covered several times, and im sick of repeating myself mate.In short, if you have some kind of magical or secret way of moving from your box to another location (i.e you have a way of going into hiding while not being observed) then you can hide from me.If you dont have such a method, you cant.The observer watched them crawl in the box and close the lid. As long as that remains the objective reality (the person hiding from you is in the box) the person in the box cannot be hidden from you.He can be as quiet as he wants, but he never becomes hidden. His DC to become hidden relative to you is infinity.Should he slink off elsewhere via a concealed secret door while inside the box (go into hiding while not under observation), then he can hide normally.Just because you might not find them persuasive because of your interpretation, doesnt mean others wont.OK, then come over to my house and we can empirically test the theory out. To see if you can hide from me under observation, lets use the following experiment:I'll put 5 boxes in a room and you can hide in one of them. I'll then try to find you by repeatedly poking a broom stick through a box of my choosing. The first 100 times I'll watch you crawl into the box you choose, and give you a minute (under observation) to be as quiet as you want inside that box. Lets see how often you get hit with the stick. It'll be every single time by the way.We can then repeat the experiment, only this time without me watching you get one of the five boxes. I'll be outside the room, blindfolded. In this case, barring me [using the Search action to listen for you inside one of those boxes, and beating your stealth check result to stay quiet] it'll average out to you getting poked only 20 percent of the time.You cant become hidden in cover. The decision is taken away from you thanks to me observing you going into cover. If I wasnt watching you go into cover, then you could hide. If I was watching you, then relative to me, you cant become hidden.I mean; you can still try (be quiet, still your breathing, stand really still) to hide, but you automatically fail to become hidden from me due to me observation of you ducking behind the pillar/ getting in the box. Heck; you can try to jump to the moon as well if you want but you also fail (DC = infinity).</blockquote>

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