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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6959597" data-attributes="member: 42582">[MENTION=6857451]ThePolarBear[/MENTION]I didn't follow all of your post, and some of it is hard to read because it is black-on-black.But I don't agree that the way things work in the fiction is irrelevant. The rules for hiding use fictional positioning as a key element of their adjudication (eg references to a character being able to be seen, revealing his/her position, etc).And clearly a creature can't hide (ie be hidden) when it's location is known to observers. To be hidden is for one's presence at a place to be unknown, more-or-less by definition.The question is, under what conditions can falling snow, or foliage, or mist, render an elf's location unknown? Can someone be looking at an elf through the falling snow, or through the trees, and then suddenly have a swirl of snow remove the elf from sight (a bit like turning invisible?). I don't have a strong view.The Wood Elf rules say "You can attempt to hide even when you are only lightly obscured by foliage, heavy rain, falling snow, mist, and other natural phenomena." But the general rules say "You can’t hide from a creature that can see you clearly". Both make sense - foliage or heavy rain is sufficient to obscure an elf from casual observation, whereas an ordinary person would be noticed. But it is a further question, in my view, whether a person who is looking at an elf clearly through the rain can suddenly lose sight of the elf. Does the elf have a magical ability to render the rain heavier/more obscuring? To create a sudden swirl of obscuring snow? And mechanically, is this a DEX check?I don't think that confident assertions about what the rules do or don't tell us in answer to this question are very helpful. The rules aren't especially well-drafted, and are manifestly capable of multiple constructions.That's why I'm more interested in thinking through these interesting cases and working out what the best view is from the point of view of the fiction, playability, balance, broader considerations like "let it ride", etc.</blockquote>

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