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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Uller" data-source="post: 6959701" data-attributes="member: 413">Edit: And lest I be misunderstood:  I don't think there is anything wrong with Hriston, et al's view.  I think the rules sans SA are sufficiently unclear to allow for that view and plain English allows for that view but it also allows for the view I describe below.  But the entire thread is going round and round because of these two definitions. You just came in, declared that you hadn't read the thread and then started arguing from one definition while completely ignoring the other.  That is the context my first comment below./EditNo.  A million times.  No.  What is happening is Hriston, Flamestrike and others are arguing from one definition of "hidden" that is not supported by the rules (made even more clear when Jeremy Crawford's Safe Advice on the subject is read without ignoring the context of the question he was answering).  Another definition of hidden is unseen and unheard and this definition makes the rules more clear and Mr. Crawford's Sage Advice make more sense.  (Full disclosure, I have found myself in disagreement with SA before...but in that case I just ignore it...I don't try to argue he didn't mean what he clearly meant). Here is a RL example.  Me to my wife: Where are my keys?Wife:  Right there on the counter? Me: Where?  Wife: Right there!  Beside the calendar.Me: Uh...I don't see them.Wife (rolling her eyes walking over and pick them up): Right! Here!Another one (I was a tanker): Tank Commander: Gunner, Coax, Infantry in the tree line (this is the command to fire the coax machine gun at a specific target)Gunner: I don't see themTC: Right where your sight is pointing.  Tree line, 200 meters.Gunner:  I don't see them (fires anyway in the general area and gets disadvantage on the shot)Defining hidden as location unknown rather than unseen and unheard excludes these scenarios from the game.  The example I gave up thread is a wood elf hides in the brush from two characters.  One character moves near the wood elf and spots it because it is no longer lightly obscured.  The spotting character announces the location of the wood elf.  That does not (or at least should not) automatically reveal the elf to the other character even though the other character now knows the location of the wood-elf.  I would allow a free perception check or if the character spends an action to search I would allow advantage on the perception check since he now knows right where to look, but it knowledge of the location does not automatically reveal the wood-elf.</blockquote>

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