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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hriston" data-source="post: 6967646" data-attributes="member: 6787503">No, I think that still counts as attacking them. Are you saying that because this rule is found under "Special Types of Attacks" in the section on Melee, that it only applies to melee attacks? I read it as applying universally to all types of attack. It would be odd, for example, if I was unable to target an invisible (and hidden) creature with a sword, but had no problem aiming a bow and arrow at it.I think the idea is that they are not in the area of your fireball. You don't know where they are. Elves have a movement rate of 120 feet per one minute round, which is more than enough to make it virtually impossible to know where to place the center of a 20 foot radius area of effect. A fireball cast at a point where you guess invisible and undetected elves are would be a wasted spell, unless we're talking about very large, densely positioned group of elves covering a large area where you're virtually guaranteed to hit some elves no matter where you point, or some other corner-case. What distinction are you trying to draw here? Chainmail was the primary rules for combat. That's why the d20-based attack and saving throw matrices are presented as an alternative. The one notable modification D&D makes to Chainmail is that hits don't automatically kill but instead do damage.How do you affect elves who are in an unknown and undetected location? Not even cloudkill covers a wide enough area to trap the elves.I haven't tried to show that such a restriction exists. I've merely said that I think it's suggested by the fact that elves can't turn invisible while attacking. Even if they can turn invisible under direct observation, however, they won't be hidden. That's the point. The 5e wood elf, on the other hand, certainly does not have the power to turn invisible without first becoming hidden.Not if they're hidden. If they're hidden, you don't know where to aim your fireball.</blockquote>

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