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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hriston" data-source="post: 6983173" data-attributes="member: 6787503">This provision of yours is not in the rules, and you have yet to produce a citation for its source. Whatever it was you heard or read, I don't think you're remembering it correctly. How does not seeing it clearly help you discover the object? You can already see it un-clearly due to the dim lighting. I disagree with this on two counts. First, I don't believe there is any such ability, except if you count the ability to cast an invisibility spell and then hide, for example. This is mainly what we're disagreeing about in this thread. My position is that MotW, NS, HiPS, and Skulker do not grant the ability to "enter hiding" in a situation where someone sees you clearly and so knows where you are. Second, assuming we were talking about a legal hide move, the contest decides if you are found, not if you can hide, which is decided by the DM when allowing the attempt. You are still hidden, for example, from anyone who isn't looking or whose Perception doesn't beat your Stealth, even though your roll failed against one opponent. There is no failure condition for the Stealth roll. It actually sets the DC that others roll against to determine if they fail or succeed at finding you. I've said several times in this thread that I think too much of a distinction is being drawn between "hiding" and "trying to hide". They're just two ways of saying the same thing, i.e. attempting to not be noticed. You can succeed or fail in the attempt with reference to specific observers, but it's the DM that allows you to hide in the first place, based on prevailing circumstances. You seem to be misunderstanding what I'm saying. Maybe I don't write as clearly as I think I do. I'm not saying (and didn't say) you can't begin hiding when no one's around to spot you. In fact, that's mostly how characters begin hiding in my games, which is something I can't imagine you haven't caught on to if you've been following the thread. The point I'm trying to make is that while you can (and often should) begin hiding when no one's around, the desired result of that effort is to keep your location unknown from an observer that has yet to arrive on the scene. That's who you're hiding from. When you hide, you're always hiding from someone, even if they aren't there yet.</blockquote>

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