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<blockquote data-quote="Maxperson" data-source="post: 6984174" data-attributes="member: 23751">No.&nbsp; No it isn't.&nbsp; Heavy obscurement blocks vision entirely.&nbsp; Auto fail is better than disadvantage.You keep going to things like &quot;not the only reading&quot;.&nbsp; That's not relevant.&nbsp; What is relevant is the natural language.&nbsp; Working to read something differently isn't using the words the way they are naturally used.&nbsp; Your number 1 is wrong, because a perception check is absolutely required if someone is hiding. The hiding rules tell you that it's the way to find the hider.&nbsp; The environment rules tell you that the check has disadvantage.&nbsp; Now, as a DM you can overrule the rules, but that's an exception that you are making for your game.&nbsp; As for number 2, natural language requires that to be true.&nbsp; It's literally impossible to clearly see something that is obscured.&nbsp; You might be able to clearly see portions of that thing, but you cannot clearly see a thing that is obscured by any amount.I disagree.&nbsp; Light obscurement is enough to allow an unobserved human to hide, which give the deck check to hide.&nbsp; It ends there. The check itself doesn't come before anything other than perhaps being discovered by the perception check.&nbsp; In all cases, the light obscurement(chicken) comes before the check(egg).</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Maxperson, post: 6984174, member: 23751"] No. No it isn't. Heavy obscurement blocks vision entirely. Auto fail is better than disadvantage. You keep going to things like "not the only reading". That's not relevant. What is relevant is the natural language. Working to read something differently isn't using the words the way they are naturally used. Your number 1 is wrong, because a perception check is absolutely required if someone is hiding. The hiding rules tell you that it's the way to find the hider. The environment rules tell you that the check has disadvantage. Now, as a DM you can overrule the rules, but that's an exception that you are making for your game. As for number 2, natural language requires that to be true. It's literally impossible to clearly see something that is obscured. You might be able to clearly see portions of that thing, but you cannot clearly see a thing that is obscured by any amount. I disagree. Light obscurement is enough to allow an unobserved human to hide, which give the deck check to hide. It ends there. The check itself doesn't come before anything other than perhaps being discovered by the perception check. In all cases, the light obscurement(chicken) comes before the check(egg). [/QUOTE]

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