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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Jeremy" data-source="post: 155403" data-attributes="member: 4036">Bah.  D&D is about what you can do, not ways to minimize the abilities of your players or tell them flat out, nope you can't do that.17th level games are hard to run, yes.  Gate can be used to summon a solar (it's a 9th level spell), it can also be used to summon a celestial gold dragon or a fiendish red dragon for the bad guy.Instead of saying no, don't let him do it, give him ways to deal with the situation.How many 17th level casters you got running around your world?  In mine these guys would be the high priests of the greatest church around if they weren't running around serving their gods.  When they summon forth aid to thwart the evil schemes of demons and cultists, their calls are heard and through their magic the big boys are able to actually set foot upon the prime and show why good will always defeat evil.  IMC the Solar is just itching to get in there and help out the guys that are saving the world, but for the same reason demons are prevented from accessing the mortal plane, so are they.The best player on a team doesn't want to be on the field less, he wants it more.  The solar should take the field of battle in blaze of glory and show not only what happens to people who endanger that particular gods followers (especially their favored, blessed followers) but also shows the truest virtues of good to assembled good guys.  Virtue, Valor, Mercy, Sacrifice, Love, Righteous Extermination of Evil (TM).Of course if they are challenging the bad guy in his lair he could very well use the evil altar of his dark god, the blood of innocents, an unholy relic of his dark god, and the prescense of demons in his casting of a Banishment spell to gain 4 to his caster level check to pierce SR, meaning 8 or better on a d20 if he's just a 20th level Evil Villain (TM) without spell power, any spell penetration items/feats, or a desecrated/unholy lair of some sort, and adding +8 to the will save to negate it givine a DC that can easily reach 40 for a well built bad guy.If the big bad guy the solar gets summoned to defeat is by himself, then he will lose of course.  One powerful villain is no match for 4-6 powerful heroes.  Especially one so foolish as to let them gain access to him while he is by himself or so arrogant as to believe he can take them solo.  And a team of high level characters can do anything.  This goes for your PC's or the team of bad guys.Your goal is not to defeat everything the PC's can do, it's to create a climactic battle of cinematic proportions that is challenging and fun.  You are the DM you've got every tool in the book to make that happen.  You can describe with power the Solar's celestial aura as he arrives and wrath he holds for the evil before him.  You can describe the evil host arrayed to defeat the PC's and their new ally.  You can have foes dropped left and right by the heroes and their ally, you can have foes that take hit after hit and remain standing, you can have foes who deal out foul magick after foul magick in a titanic spell war, you can have dark champions and advanced demons with class levels wreak havok among the heroes' ranks.  And you can have a tremendous victory as the heroes use all their powers and win the day without pairing their powers down to the few 9th level spells that aren't too much more powerful than what the PC's were doing at 13th level.Use your imagination, encourage theirs, and remember, it's not what you can't do, it's what you can!</blockquote>

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