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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Breakstone" data-source="post: 1403129" data-attributes="member: 481">Hey, will you look at that? There's logs for both workshops! Here's the log for the first one:DM Workshop #1 : HouserulesHosted by Tsunami Febraury 12, 2004<Tsunami> For those who don't know, tonight is a DM Workshop on House Rules<Tsunami> Hosted by the one and only me!<Tsunami> Two of us?<Tsunami> Which one is the real one?* Silvr_Dragon licks both tsunamis<thatdarncat> I could kill both of you and let Bynw sort you out...<Ryeuken> tsunami do u work for any rpg company?<Silvr_Dragon> You taste more authentic Tsunami<Alex_Knight> I think you are, Tsunami... I just noticed the little Op symbol.<Tsunami> Ryeuken- Nope, but I know someone who knows someone who is!<Tsunami> )* Sutekh better get his moneys worth.<Ryeuken> dont u guys find the D&D skill system oversimplified?* Tsunami coughs real loud<Tsunami> Hello everybody!<KingOfLaw> Not really..they're a little complicated, actually...with max skill ranks, cross class skills, etc.<Tsunami> Welcome to the first EN World DM Seminar<KingOfLaw> Now people needs to talk <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /><Tsunami> For those who don't know, this is a new feature of the #dnde chat room<thatdarncat> new but old )<Tsunami> heh<Tsunami> Please keep in mind that while this won't be a moderated chat (like interviews), this will be an "on topic" chat<Kaodi> Bah, I think in e the skills should be broken up into Basic/Advanced and Exclusive. Basic are class skills for everyone, advanced for some, and exclusive for a few.<Tsunami> Tonight we will be discussing House Rules<Tsunami> And how to use them to your advantage in your campaigns<Tsunami> Who here uses house rules in your campaigns?* Neko_Ali raises a hand<Harlock> me<Ryeuken> me but not in d&D )* Dan used to... Hasn't run in years.<Tsunami> House rules can be used to simply fix errors in gameplay, or they can be used to change the flavor of entire campaigns<Silveras> i do* Alex_Knight has.* Bynw uses house rules<Tsunami> One area where I've found house rules most frivolent is in Favored Class<Tsunami> Do you folks use the base rules for favored class as presented in the player's handbook?<Harlock> mostly.<Alex_Knight> Yup.<Neko_Ali> I usually remove that from my games.<Tsunami> Neko- that's what I've found is usually the case<Neko_Ali> unless I'm deliberatly avoiding house rules, that's one of the first things to go.<Silveras> Is that "prevalent" or "frivolous" you were going for ?<necro> hehe that was my thought<Tsunami> Silveras- I'm using "Jabberwocky Vocabulary"<Tsunami> p<Silveras> ok<Kaodi> Favoured class could be done without.<Jack_Burton> Yep, I don't see the point in it.<Alex_Knight> It usually never becomes a problem in my games because either they play the favored class, or they only take one class with maybe a PrC, which doesn't suffer the penalty, IIRC.<Tsunami> Now I've found that even if you don't use Favored Class rules, changing the favored class can alter the outlook of a race<Harlock> correct, Alex_Knight<Jack_Burton> It's not that huge of a advantadge either way, for humans or otherwise.<KingOfLaw> Indeed...a lot of dwarven wizards running around with Con )<Tsunami> Heh, yup<Alex_Knight> Or they play Humans where it doesn't freaking matter. ;-)* thatdarncat uses houserules - the DM (me) is always right<Tsunami> But if you change the Half-Orc favored class to, say, Monk, that changes the entire racial outlook<Neko_Ali> favored class would perhaps be better giving a small bonus to the race/class combo. But mostly I think it's better just being removed.<KingOfLaw> I mostly play humans anyway, with the select elf every once and a while.<Kaodi> Experience penalties are evil.<Tsunami> Neko- I've considered giving a bonus to favored classes as well<Sutekh> Tsunami Define a Home Rule. Do you think if everyone has different home rules that it can interfere with the flow of a game with players spending hours arguing who is right or wrong?<Jack_Burton> Maybe, if there was...I dunno, an experience point bonus. Otherwise, there's no point. The penalty is just too easy to get around.<Tsunami> Sutekh- House rules are any rules that add or subtract to the base rules presented in the Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master Guide, or Monster Manual<KingOfLaw> for your personal game )<KingOfLaw> Thus the "house" part )<Tsunami> exactly, King<Tsunami> )<Sutekh> So that means rd party d rules are House Rules?<Silveras> Example house rule I made Sorcerer the favored class of Elves in my world, as magic comes naturally to them. Humans, on the other hand, are not allowed to be Sorcerers because magic does NOT come naturally to them. * DeadGuest blinks... au?<Tsunami> Sutekh- Actually, I'd consider so, Sutekh. Taking rulings from a rd party d suppliment would be a house rule in your campaign<Tsunami> Silveras- Just the example I was looking for!<Sutekh> k<Sutekh> And the FR books?<KingOfLaw> nope<Alex_Knight> In fact anything other than the three core books could be considered house rules.<Sutekh> All rules listed in there are house rules?<KingOfLaw> That's an official setting<Sutekh> yes<Alex_Knight> At least I would.<Tsunami> I was considering giving the human bonus skill points to any character who takes their favored class<Sutekh> But.. does not fit with Tsunamis rule )<Alex_Knight> Tsunami, I like that idea.<Tsunami> Sutekh- That's debatable, but I'd say if you're not running Forgotten Realms, taking a rule or two from it would be using house rules<Sutekh> Okay<Kaodi> Tsunami> That's a cool idea.<Sutekh> So would you mind expanding your original statement then?<Tsunami> Heh, sure thing Sutekh* KingOfLaw doesn't like the negative reinforcement used in the favored class rules<Tsunami> Me neither, KingOfLaw<Silveras> Rule # of house rules Understand the implications before you do it. <Tsunami> Speaking of races, how many folks use +Effective Character Level or +Level Adjustment races in their campaigns?<Neko_Ali> agreed on that. THe same problem I had with alignment restrictions and multiclass restrictions on certain classes.<Sutekh> Tsunami I dont think there has ever been such a time as now for people to become confused with the HUGE influx of d games and their own rules and eccentricities. Trying to plot a straight course through all the different rulings (ie alternate PHB classes) is a very difficult task.* Alex_Knight jumps up and down and waves his hands.<KingOfLaw> It's better to award players for using a certain class/race combination rather than forcing them to with clunky rules<Tsunami> I agree, Sutekh<Neko_Ali> they made a big deal about removing restrictions and making whatever character you wanted, yet there still were these restrictions<Kaodi> So, I was thinking of completing that... taking a level in your favoured class gives you an extra skill point for that level. And perhaps prestige classes that stack with your favoured class do as well><Ryeuken> the first rule is not to talk about the rules )<Tsunami> Alex- what ECL and LA races do you use?<KingOfLaw> Bah..hard my undead butt. Its a pick and choose situation.<KingOfLaw> Tsunami I do )<KingOfLaw> I especially like it when at least one of my players uses something a little unusual.<Tsunami> KingOfLaw- do you implement any house rules when applying ECL or LA?<Alex_Knight> Well, as long as the player asks first, any. Right now I have a party of four half orcs and a Bugbear.<Tsunami> Wow. Have you found any balance issues?<Sutekh> and I also think that so many d products means a huge issue with people arguing over using their own home rules<Tsunami> I agree, Sutekh<KingOfLaw> Nah..balance isn't a problem. You just have to be able to know how to challenge an unusual character during encounters.<Tsunami> It can be difficult for a DM to moderate what rules to use from so many books<Alex_Knight> At this point? Not really.<Tsunami> Good point, KingOfLaw<Harlock> I haven't seen that, Sutekh. But I know my group well and we trust one another a lot and the DM's word is law. Be it in my campaign or Reiella's.<KingOfLaw> For instance, a large character could be challenged more simply by making the space the encounter takes place in smaller than they're used to (IE. Not allowing them to use their full reach to their advantage all the time).<Tsunami> What do you folks think defines a house rule as good or bad?<Alex_Knight> Granted, I did give the bugbear a bonus by letting him be level ( Racial Hit Die and + LA) when the rest of the part started out at (Granted they were three by the time they met the bugbear.).<Kaodi> Ah, simple solution> Only the DM can use non-core rules, hehehe<KingOfLaw> Tsunami Where or not the rule works under repeated use and pressure during game play.<KingOfLaw> *whether<Alex_Knight> But then the Bugbear has a specific goal in mind, and what happens after that is up to the players.<Kaodi> Personally I think that its best to use the rules made for a specific setting without too much mixing.<Tsunami> I agree, Kaodi<Harlock> I think a house rule can be defined as good if it enhances the flavor of the campaign. Bottomline is Does it make the game more fun for everyone involved? If not, bad house rule.<Tsunami> I completely agree, Harlock<Tsunami> In our current campaign, one character is going to play as a Minotaur<KingOfLaw> For instance, my spell critical house rules did NOT work for area of effect spells the first time it was used when the enemies in a fireball took points of damage and all died, ending the carefully planned counter in one round.<Ryeuken> any of u guys in newyork i wanna see a good game being done* ToEToE looks around<Tsunami> THis means he will probably be far more powerful in combat than any other character<Vaxalon> Have you ever heard the old triad of Gamist, Simulationist, Dramatist?<Tsunami> But as long as the game is still fun for all of us, it doesn't really matter<KingOfLaw> So, I changed it to where criticals only count on ranged and normal touch attacks. )<ToEToE> yes i am <Tsunami> That's a good impliment of House Rules, KingOfLaw<Tsunami> Speaking of changing rules on the fly, has anyone run a chase scene in a D&D game before?* Dan is missing too much - being stuck back in D&D / AD&D era rules... He waves bye...<Tsunami> Philip Athans suggested the following house rule for a chase scene between a wight and a flying character<Vaxalon> A gamist would say that a house rule is good if it allows you to make the GAME more exciting. A simulationist would say that a house rule is good if it enhances versimilitude. A dramatist would say "who needs house rules? We ignore the CORE rules."<KingOfLaw> I've ran many chase scenes<Tsunami> Basically they have to roll off against each other, adding their Dexterities to a roll of d. If the wight (being chased) wins, Lardus (the pursuer) has a harder time catching up to him the next round (so he rolls d instead of d). Every time Lardus falls behind his chances of ever catching up diminishes. All this was weighted to show that the wight, a natural flier, was better and faster at it than Lardus, who only occasionally flies, pulled along by a big heavy halberd. Oddly, this rule actually seemed to work. Give it a try.<ToEToE> KingOfLaw i like that rule )<ToEToE> specially since i have ranged touch attacks )<Sutekh> Tsunami Sure. Spycraft Car chase scene<Sutekh> On a Freeway even.<KingOfLaw> The player loved it when he killed four ogres in one hit P He wasn't so loving of it after I changed it the next session.<Tsunami> I don't think D&D is particularly geared towards chase scenes<ToEToE> it can be <Sutekh> Cause nothing moves fast enough<Tsunami> What with character speeds being basically the same<Sutekh> Cars do )<Tsunami> But simple house rules can fix that<ToEToE> i move rather fast<Tsunami> heh<ToEToE> i walk and run <Tsunami> I rather liked Philip Athan's suggestions of rolling lesser and lesser dice<Tsunami> Each racer starting with d<KingOfLaw> Nope, because terrain isn't really taken into account. During chase scenes, I have my players and the enemies roll dexterity checks to see if they fall down, trip, etc. and Con checks to see if they become exhausted. It ends up being a lot of dice rolling.<Tsunami> The loser rolling d (plus dexterity) next, the winner keeping with d<Vaxalon> Where are the best chase scenes in movies?<Vaxalon> bond movies<KingOfLaw> Usually in cars P<Vaxalon> What are the attributes of a bond chase scene?<Vaxalon> > Chewing up the scenery<Hildulf> There's a good one in xXx...<Vaxalon> > Things blowing up<Sutekh> Guns mounted on cars<Vaxalon> > Stunts<Sutekh> and collateral damage<DeadGuest> Bourne Identity.<Vaxalon> yes!<Tsunami> I agree<Vaxalon> so<Vaxalon> When you're running a chase scene in a game, here's the best way to do it.<Vaxalon> Present the players with a series of mini-encounters.<Smaug> I have a char in D&D who can walk ft a second<Vaxalon> Each one requires a check to pass.<ToEToE> how about blues brothers car chase scene ?<Tsunami> I remember reading about someone on the boards rolling a "chance die" to see if something happened Rooms collapsing, walls caving in, stuff like that<Vaxalon> Jump, strength, dexterity, climb* ENGuest is now known as dDwarf<Tsunami> That's a good idea, Vax<Tsunami> toetoe- i love that one<Vaxalon> If you pass the check, dandy<Kaodi> Would it not be simpler to give a circumstance penalty of say - for each loss?<Vaxalon> If you fail it, then the distance widens or narrows<Vaxalon> So you're not rolling the same dice over and over<Tsunami> That's a very good idea, Vax<Vaxalon> You're rolling one kind of check, then another kind of check* Vaxalon isn't an iron dm for nothing<Tsunami> Ha ha ha<ToEToE> why not just role balance checks when running<Vaxalon> Also, that's how chase scenes were handled in the old James Bond RPG<Vaxalon> ToE Because rolling JUST balance checks would be boring.<Vaxalon> It's good to throw one in once in a while<Tsunami> One place in which I see a lot of fluctuation is character creation<KingOfLaw> Heh..the best chase scene we ever had in our game was when we were chasing the villain in horse drawn carriages...and my PC cast a wall of force in front of the enemy's carriage.....to say the least, there wasn't much left of him, his carraige, or his horses after they crashed into it.<ToEToE> yeah but rolling to much is annouying<Tsunami> Heh heh heh<Tsunami> Last Sunday my group was rolling up new characters<dDwarf> wish I knew what y'all had discussed already so I won't bring up dead issues )<Tsunami> And the DM told us to reroll all ones<Vaxalon> ToE Not if something different is happening with each roll.<Tsunami> dDwarf- Chase scenes, favored class, ECL<KingOfLaw> yep )<Tsunami> Least to say, I rolled up a very, very heroic character<Tsunami> What character generation house rules have you folks seen?<dDwarf> I usually do d, reroll s<Sutekh> point buy?<Sutekh> )<Alex_Knight> d reroll <ToEToE> i mean i could see rulling if you were running through the woods or a field or through rocky terrain * Sutekh hasnt rolled for stats in a little over a year<ToEToE> but i couldn't see rolling for running on a road <ToEToE> or in town <Kaodi> Games I play in are point buy.<Hildulf> d+d, drop lowest, nothing unmodified over .<Tsunami> That's interesting<KingOfLaw> point buy...<Vaxalon> ToE That's why you never run a chase in open terrain.<Vaxalon> It's boring that way.<Alex_Knight> d reroll 's, d drop lowest. Point buy points. d drop lowest, roll 9 times, pick best .<KingOfLaw> Well, horse carriages can only go so far off the road before they hit trees, rocks, etc. )<Vaxalon> Reroll twos is basically d+<Vaxalon> KoL Yes, but they can encounter crowds, uneven pavement, stacked barrels, vegetable carts...<Tsunami> Have you ever considered random race or class selection?<Vaxalon> Baby ducks<Sutekh> Vaxalon Mother pushing a pram? )<Vaxalon> Tsunami No, never.<KingOfLaw> lol..baby ducks<Vaxalon> Sutekh Exactly!<ToEToE> although i never really run anwhere since my basemovement is always so high )<Vaxalon> I used baby ducks in a James Bond game.<Sutekh> cept its always some dirty looking woman pushing a pram filled with Empty cans!<Tsunami> heh<dDwarf> Bree talks about doing random race/class drawings in an old game of hers, she said it turned out fun<Vaxalon> They used a fate point to keep from running them over.<KingOfLaw> We've done that before too, Wil. I ended up playing a female halfing barbarian o_o<Tsunami> Ha ha ha<Tsunami> Another area in which I see a lot of house rules is in Magic<Tsunami> What house rules for magic have you folks seen?<Tsunami> There are some simple fixes, like harm/heal<Tsunami> But I think other house rules can add a lot of flavor to campaigns<KingOfLaw> She got the nickname Nutcracker for a reason <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /><Tsunami> Let's say I wanted all magic to be casters using leftover radiation from an ancient apocalypse<Alex_Knight> None yet.<Tsunami> What house rules do you folks think would work best to slap onto magic?<Sutekh> I tend to not fux with the Magic systems in most games... Once you change something it like you are causing other cracks in the dyke to appear and you have to keep on making changes to balance things up<Vaxalon> In the oneshot I'm preparing for Sunday, there are no spell CASTERS. All magic is done through magic items of some kind.<ToEToE> lol<Vaxalon> ANd then very few<Tsunami> That's interesting<Kaodi> Sutekh> Spell points... <Vaxalon> It's a tolkienesque setting<KingOfLaw> Well, I use a lot of magic in my games. For instance, in a mage duel, I don't use initiative to determine who goes first..but whoever rolls highest on a spellcraft check )<Vaxalon> A friend of mine wanted to play Legolas. )<Tsunami> For Radiation-Mages, I'd consider adding a fortitude save to avoid temporary consitution damage<Kaodi> Vax> Cool. What time is that?<Tsunami> That's interesting, King<Vaxalon> Time?<Vaxalon> Kaodi Private game, FTF<Sutekh> the best magic rules I have seen though came from a book series. Basically on the planet you had gems that held magical charge. Gems were of different color varieties and you would use the charge contained in each for different magical effects.<Tsunami> That would be interesting<KingOfLaw> Hey Tsunami Did you read my article in Stygian #? I have a Rad Wizard class in it ^_^<Tsunami> What rules would you impliment in order to enforce that in your campaign?<Tsunami> Sutekh, I mean<Sutekh> Of course you were really only a 'wizard' type if your gem had a charge<Vaxalon> In an old game I had four kinds of spellcasters, one for each element<Tsunami> King- No, I haven't, but great minds think alike!<KingOfLaw> In fact, the entire article is about using radiation as a magic source.<Sutekh> Well I also played in said game, Tsunami )<Vaxalon> SOrceror/fire, Wizard/air, Psion/Earth, Alchemist/water<Tsunami> heh<Sutekh> Mostly the magics were related to stat boots<Tsunami> Well, what rules were implimented?<Sutekh> ie temp stat increases<Tsunami> That's interesting<Sutekh> It was a 'Western' setting<Sutekh> So most of us were gun slingers<Sutekh> some used magic in shootouts to clip say guys before they got a shot off<KingOfLaw> I recently saw a cool house rule for sorcerers...I think Ralts came up with it...but it allows sorcerers to specialize in an element. <Sutekh> like a much improved Haste<Tsunami> heh<Tsunami> That's interesting, KingofLaw<KingOfLaw> Similar to how wizards specialize in a school of magic.<Tsunami> I've often wanted to impliment a "theme rule" to sorcerers<Sutekh> There wernt any wizards per se. No one could cast magic without a gem<Sutekh> and getting new ones was hard considering they were impossible to recharge<Sutekh> So yes.. outlaws were ridding around killing people for their gems<Tsunami> Cool<KingOfLaw> Tsunami I like the idea of 'themes' for sorcerers. It makes more since, because the magic that is their heritage may lean toward one extreme and that should definately affect the character's spell selection.<KingOfLaw> *sense<Tsunami> What rules would you folks suggest for implimenting a "theme" to sorcerers?<Vaxalon> KoL I think that's better handled by player choice than by rule.<Vaxalon> None at all.<Vaxalon> I think it should be up to the player to assemble a theme<Tsunami> Well, let's say we wanted to make a rule to reward a theme selection<Vaxalon> After all, who is the theme for?<Alex_Knight> Tsunami There was an issue of Dragon that had [Bloodline] feats for sorcerors. Those are the rules I plan on using.<Tsunami> Good idea, Alex<Vaxalon> Alex Those weren't really rules, they were guidelines for players to handle<Vaxalon> Though they had a few feats<Sutekh> I like settings where magic isnt inherent.. where it has to be earned.. to be controlled<Tsunami> Perhaps choosing themes for sorcerers could be rewarded with an extra spell<Vaxalon> nah<Tsunami> Or a stat boost by "burning" spells?<Tsunami> That would be interesting<KingOfLaw> Yes, but did they offer something that wasn't 'dragon this, dragon that'? I hate the fact that sorcerer's magic is instantly associated with being related to a dragon.<Vaxalon> How about doing it the way they do fighting styles for fighters?<Tsunami> heh<Tsunami> How's that, Vax?<Vaxalon> Well<Vaxalon> FIghting styles give you a small bonus if you take a list of feats.<Vaxalon> A "magic style" would give you a small bonus if you take a list of spells, and maybe one or two magic feats.<dDwarf> I'm thinking about doing a fighting styles pdf, although it might focus on weapons<KingOfLaw> For instance, a sorcerer with a necromancy theme could have been the result of a curse set upon the mother by an ancient lich or something similar.<Vaxalon> For a wizard to qualify, he would have to reserve slots for the spells in his style.<Tsunami> That's an interesting idea, Vax<Tsunami> What bonuses do you think would be appropriate?<Vaxalon> SMall ones.<Alex_Knight> Vax Nono, not that issue. There was one where it had specific feats that gave sorcerors specific spells in addition to their noemal list.<Vaxalon> On the same order of fighting styles.<Tsunami> Bonuses to skills?<Tsunami> Extra options during spellcasting?<KingOfLaw> Something like the Heroic Paths from Midnight could be used for sorcerers...with some serious toning down in power...to represent a theme.<Tsunami> Speaking of magic, the new DM in the campaign we're about to start has made some interesting changes for his campaign<Vaxalon> Tsunami Bonuses to skills would be a good start, perhaps small metamagic on certain spells<Tsunami> He's given humans innate spells to represent their closeness with magic<Neko_Ali> time for me to go collapse... take care all<Tsunami> But he's taken away their bonus skill points and feats<alaric> the alternative would be for spells to have prerequisites<dDwarf> it would be hard to tone down the heroic paths any farther )<KingOfLaw> Bleh...the sorcerer and wizard skill lists are so crappy now as it is.<Tsunami> The new DM has also taken away simple weapon proficiencies from fighters, and instead given them a number of exotic weapon proficiencies<Vaxalon> Taken away SIMPLE weapon proficiencies?<Tsunami> By making these changes, he's given the world a very magical feel<KingOfLaw> Well, the unlimited knowlede skills are nice.<Vaxalon> That's really weird.<alaric> how does that work?<dDwarf> yep, that is indeed weird )<Tsunami> Vax- in this new campaign, there are far more wizards and sorcerers than anything else<Tsunami> The fighter is the rare class<Tsunami> And doesn't worry about using simple weapons<Tsunami> Through these house rules, he's really added a lot of flavor to the campaign<dDwarf> I think it would be kinda cool to just give a fighter martial/exotic WP and make him choose<Vaxalon> Dwarf That's how e was.<dDwarf> that was before my time<alaric> i've been wanting to do something with fighters to give them more decisions in combat, i thought about a Sword Forms a la WoT, anyone seen anything like that in a d book?* dDwarf snickers<Tsunami> Dwarf- that would certaintly give them more of the "specialized" feel<Tsunami> In ., did anyone add any house rules to the Ranger?<Tsunami> By the masses, it was considered a somewhat bland class<Vaxalon> Alaric you mean that Combat Expertise, Power Attack, disarms, trips, bull rushes, overruns, and different weapon choices aren't enough?<Tsunami> I've seen some interesting Ranger house rules<alaric> the entire point of the current rules is that previously a master swordsman wouldn't know how to use a club<Tsunami> One person on the Monte Cook boards gave Rangers the Alarm spell useable once per day<Tsunami> I think that's an interesting way to enforce the "always aware" theme on rangers<Tsunami> So what are some other interesting house rules you folks have seen?<Vaxalon> I adapted the Scarred Lands arcane heat rule<Vaxalon> I made it do subdual damage instead<Tsunami> What's the Arcane Heat rule?<Vaxalon> point per % of arcane spell failure./<Tsunami> ah, i see<Vaxalon> That's MY rule.<Tsunami> That's an interesting way of doing the "magic fatigues" idea<Vaxalon> But it only applies if the caster is wearing heavy clothes or armor<Vaxalon> Actually, it's a LITTLE more complicated than that.<Vaxalon> You roll d per spell level, subtract , and add point per % ASF<Vaxalon> SO if you're naked or nearly so, there's never any damage.<Tsunami> In one of the Sinbad Movies (the swashbuckler, not the comic), the mage has very powerful magic, but it ages him<Kaodi> Vaxalon> Have you been dwelling too much on those Albadians? *chuckle*<Vaxalon> shrug I think it's a nifty rule.<Tsunami> How about upping damage and saving throws on spells, but having the caster make saving throws vs aging a few years?<Vaxalon> tsunami baaad rule.<Vaxalon> Every spellcaster would be an elf.<Tsunami> Well, here's what I was pondering<Vaxalon> You can SIMULATE aging by doing attribute damage to str/dex/con<Tsunami> Very good idea<Vaxalon> Why should your Int go up because of MAGICAL aging?<Vaxalon> Your mind is still young and stupid<Vaxalon> On the rare occasion that I want aging, I use str/dex/con drain.<Tsunami> What do you think would be a good improvement to magic for this aging drain?<Tsunami> Anyone?<Vaxalon> Well<Vaxalon> Most casters don't have a huge use for physical attributes<Vaxalon> So it shouldn't be a lot<Vaxalon> As long as it heals.<Vaxalon> If it doesn't...<Vaxalon> Well then magic should be something that's just not used by PC's very much.<Tsunami> Maybe most spells wouldn't cause the age drain, but mages could combine spells and age permanently<Vaxalon> And when it IS used, the effects should be big.<Tsunami> That would be interesting... for each spell combined, you lose d points of strength, dex, or con<Vaxalon> For it to be aging, it needs to be all three I think<Tsunami> So you could combine fireball and magic missile and flaming arrow, but you'd lose anywhere from to points<Kaodi> I don't know... sounds like a good way to become useless, fast.<Vaxalon> Or dead<Tsunami> I think it would be easier to impliment in a magic-heavy world, where fixing hurt stats is one clerical trip away<Vaxalon> So the most powerful wizard isn't the smartest one, but the most muscular, quickest, and toughest?<Tsunami> That's interesting<Tsunami> Flavorwise, they would change that way<Sutekh> Ive built int Wizards on point buy with equal strength and Con<Sutekh> Its not that difficult a jump<Tsunami> So while the intelligent wizards would cast many spells, the wizards who went to boot camp can do less spells overall, but more powerful spells<Vaxalon> The concept of the old, frail wizard who is nonetheless powerful and dangerous would be history.<Tsunami> Vax- it would, indeed, change the flavor of the campaign<Tsunami> "magic is for the young"<Kaodi> Ah... that would be funny. Cleric who use Con as their spellcasting attribute, Sorcerers with Dex and Wizards with Str, hehehe<Tsunami> heh<Sutekh> and the undead, Tsnumai )<Tsunami> Fighters who use intelligence, and barbarians who use charisma?<Kaodi> hehehe<Tsunami> Sutekh- wow, they would be better off<Tsunami> Actually, we could continue that<Kaodi> Fighters and Barbarians Intelligence, and Rogues Charisma.<Sutekh> Indeed<Tsunami> Through heavy house-ruling, you could change the classes around<Kaodi> But then we would just have psionics all over again.<Sutekh> What I never understood was why Vampire Mages in nd ed didnt continually cast wish spells. It AGED THEM.<Tsunami> Fighters are no longer tanks- instead, they're masters of strategy, replacing strength bonus damage with intelligence<Kaodi> Yeah..... if magic ages you, imagine what the dragons would look like, hehehe...<Tsunami> Heh heh heh<Tsunami> "Take the damned princess... just give me back my dentures!"<Tsunami> Actually, house rules can be used on monsters to create interesting effects<Tsunami> I like the suggestion in d Modern that all undead have a weakness<Tsunami> Could be wolfsbane, could be rock and roll<Kaodi> More like, " If you can beat my tooth in one on one combat, you can have her back. "<Tsunami> p<Sutekh> Sorry.. that was just a nitpick of mine.<Kaodi> You'd probably end up with a world that looked a lot like th age Krynn... big, evil dragons that squish everything.<Sutekh> Hello.. you can cast wish. It ages you. You are a Vampire. You get better with Age.<Alex_Knight> "I Wish... I was a little older! Yeah!"<Kaodi> I didn't know being old was good for vamps...<Tsunami> Heh heh heh<Sutekh> Indeed it is<Sutekh> esp in Ravenloft<Tsunami> I've always wanted to play an undead character<Sutekh> You start not caring about Silvered weapons<Sutekh> or getting staked<Kaodi> Yeah, more bang for your buck.<raleel-laptop> that was exploited in first edition on occasion<Tsunami> A zombie fighter or something like that* Baastet (Baastet@*.net9.mo.sprint-hsd.net) has joined #dnde<Sutekh> or crossing running water<Baastet> Hola<Tsunami> Hello Baastet!<Baastet> hi tsu )<Tsunami> Has anyone here had experience having an undead character?<Tsunami> I think house rules are required for playing an undead or construct* Baastet pounces on Sutekh and dresses him up as Sailor Moon Flumph<Kaodi> Why?<Tsunami> Mostly to simplify things (although that does seem counterintuitive, doesn't it?)<Sutekh> Hey.. none of that crossdressing today Baastet )<Tsunami> I think it's easier to play as odd races if they act the same way (rules-wise, not flavor-wise) as normal characters<Tsunami> Say, allowing sneak attacks and poison and such to work against your golem character because of his soft spots and allergy to poison (okay, that's stretching it)* Baastet repounces on Sutekh and dresses him up as Tuxedo Mask flumph<Tsunami> Because otherwise it's more difficult to balance things out and keep the game smooth and fun<Tsunami> What do you folks think?<Kaodi> Bah.<Baastet> Sute Better?<Tsunami> Kaodi- Please, extrapolate. )<Vaxalon> I agree, Tsunami. THe game isn't designed to deal with really weird PC's.<Kaodi> Being a half-flesh golem just means you should take a wand of lightning bolts with you everywhere.<Vaxalon> Kaod<Vaxalon> WHy bother with something that will run out? Use a sap of lightning burst.<raleel-laptop> apparently there aren't enough character hooks with humans and elves and halflings, we need half flesh golems<Kaodi> hehehe<Tsunami> But I figure if a player gets upset because you're changing the rules but keeping the flavor, then he's playing a really weird race for all the wrong reasons<Vaxalon> I've only had one player ask to play something weird<Vaxalon> Half gold dragon<Kaodi> Being different is what makes being different fun.<Vaxalon> he was REALLY peeved when he found out he couldn't use his fighting feats when polymorphed into human form<Kaodi> Speaking of strange things, I love the template in level form.<Tsunami> The Dragon Discipline? Or level form a la Sava Species?<Kaodi> Having your th level necromancer *grow* into a lich is just cool.<Tsunami> Savage Species... I don't know where that ge went...<Tsunami> ah<Baastet> hi rasyr<Tsunami> I agree, Kaodi<Tsunami> hullo rasyr!<Kaodi> It also means that having a template is viable at low levels.<Rasyr> howdy all<Tsunami> In fact, Kaodi, a character in my campaign wanted to take a "level" of the winged template<Kaodi> I'm not familiar with that template. I don't have SS.<Tsunami> So instead of wings and the dexterity (and other) bonus, I gave him wings, d hit dice, and Good Flight maneuverability<Tsunami> The template was + ECL, but I think the changes lowered it to + quite easily<Tsunami> Kaodi- have you had experience dividing the templates into levels?<Baastet> Hi Silvr )<raleel-laptop> good flight maneuverability is pretty good, i think i would have made it + still* Baastet pounces on Silvr_Dragon and puts pokemon stickers all over him<Tika> Baastet!!!<Kaodi> You mean doing it myself? Not really. I tried once though...<Tsunami> releel- to be honest, it was right before the last adventure of the campaign, so I didn't worry about it too much )<Tsunami> What did you divide into levels, Kaodi?<raleel-laptop> lol, heh* Tika gives {{{ Baastet }}} a GREAT BIG HUG!!!<Kaodi> I tried the Half-Fire Elemental, hehehe* Baastet bows before Darth Tika , What is your bidding, My Mistress<Sutekh> Buy her erotic candles )<Tika> Baastet is my padawan learner<Tsunami> How'd you divide it up, Kaodi?<Kaodi> Actually, templates and the sorcerer bloodlines work cool together...<Baastet> Aprrentice .. padwan is for the *spit* jedi* Baastet grins evilly at darth tika<Tika> ah, well done my apprentice <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />* Tika was testing Baastet<Tika> hehehe<Baastet> hehehe<Baastet> Sute She doesn't need erotic candles she can make em herself<Baastet> ^_^<Tsunami> So anyways, any other house rules you folks would like to discuss?<Kaodi> Err, I only started it, hehehe... I gave it the + Dex at and , and + Int and Cha at .<raleel-laptop> we merged several skills<raleel-laptop> but nothing more strenuous than that<Tsunami> Like what, raleel?<raleel-laptop> spot/listen<Tsunami> I've considered doing that as well<raleel-laptop> into perception<Tsunami> That's interesting<raleel-laptop> wilderness survival and something else<Baastet> Tika I think we distracted and flustered young Tsunami .. Shall I attack?<raleel-laptop> and a couple of the social ones<Tsunami> I combined spot and read lips, disable divice and open lock, innuendo and sense motive, wilderness lore and intuit direction* Tsunami goes on total defense* Baastet scoots away form DM workshop<Kaodi> Tsunami> I am a fan of symetry, even if only seems symetrical to me, hehehe<Baastet> Move along move along nothing to see here<raleel-laptop> we're debating allowing "firing a missile weapon defensively" like "casting defensively"<Tsunami> Hm...<Tsunami> That's interesting<Kaodi> Tsunami> That sounds like v., hehehe<Tsunami> Kaodi- Heh, I wouldn't know* Tsunami hasn't udated<Tsunami> er... updated<IIsiMHz> Konbanwa, minnasan, Baastetkun<raleel-laptop> nod, . provoked part of our look at concentration* raleel-laptop is co dm in an arcana unearthed campaign<Alex_Knight> Casting defensively is a bit... well, after a while, you can never fail to cast defensively.<Tsunami> How do you mean, Raleel? What did you do with concentration?<Tsunami> Just like tumble, eh Alex?<raleel-laptop> using concentration for firing missiles defensively<Alex_Knight> Exactly.* IIsiMHz gets whumped to the floor<Baastet> Meowbanwa, IIsikun<raleel-laptop> don<Tsunami> Now that's interesting, raleel<raleel-laptop> 't have it in front of me..does v. add in the spell level into the casting defensively roll?<IIsiMHz> Genki? Baaskun<Alex_Knight> I'm considering making it so that you have to beat spell level + opponent's highest melee bonus.<raleel-laptop> AU has the cast defensively roll as +spell level<Alex_Knight> same as au.<raleel-laptop> nod<raleel-laptop> ya, it makes it harder<raleel-laptop> after looking at AU's magic system, i'm not sure i'll be able to play a wizard again<IIsiMHz> allo Nichar, jezter<Baastet> hi jez<Baastet> hi ni<jezter> yo<Nichar> hi iisimhz & baastet<Tsunami> I've considered using the Tumble vs Attack Bonus rule<raleel-laptop> nod, there are a few of those that have some abuse potential* Nichar wants to have UA in front of him now<Vaxalon> You have to make sure that tumble skill advances fast enough to stay useful if you keep pumping it<Tsunami> Raleel- In a campaign I've been designing, I've been using arcane magic from Arcana Unearthed and Divine Magic from D&D<Tsunami> Vax- That's my biggest argument against implementing the rule<raleel-laptop> using the spell slots and spells readied, Tsunami?<Tsunami> Yup, raleel<Tsunami> But divine magic was still D&D<raleel-laptop> and divine spells are more defined<Tsunami> And I changed the bard to divine magic* IIsiMHz wiggles out from under the Labrador Teektriever<raleel-laptop> you might look at the complete book of eldritch might and use that bard<Alex_Knight> Well, it doesn't make sense that it should be just as easy to weave and duck say a first level mage as it is to weave and duck say a th level Fighter with two weapons and all Focuses and Specializations.<Tsunami> That's an interesting point, Alex<raleel-laptop> Alex_Knight if i were to implement that, I would drop the base chance by , but then add in the BAB<Kaodi> Why not have a base defense bonus?<Kaodi> Ala d Modern?* raleel-laptop doesn't have d modern<Nichar> or swrpg<Tsunami> Arcana Unearthed also uses that for its Unfettered class<raleel-laptop> it has a bonus to ac, ya<IIsiMHz> allo vax<raleel-laptop> a semi-monk-like bonus<Alex_Knight> Nono, It wouldn't be + BAB + Spell Level, It would be Opponent's Highest Melee + Spell Level. Well, maybe + or + as well.<Tsunami> Hm...* AltReality (AltReality@chat.psionics.net) has joined #dnde* chat.psionics.net sets mode +q AltReality* AltReality sets mode -q AltReality* AltReality sets mode +o AltReality<Tsunami> hello alt!<Nichar> Hi AltReality<Tsunami> Welcome to my lair...<raleel-laptop> Alex_Knight nod, +spell+bab might work<raleel-laptop> it'd be pretty easy at lower levels<raleel-laptop> but get progressively harder<AltReality> Greets folks<raleel-laptop> howdy<Godspore> 'lo<IIsiMHz> Allo AltReality<thatdarncat> night all, sleep time<Sutekh> Alt.. you better stay for this. DM Worshop )<Nichar> thatdarncat night* thatdarncat is now known as thatdarnbed<Silvr_Dragon> Seeya tdb<raleel-laptop> running a DM, player AU game has been an experience<Tsunami> Say Alt, what house rules do you use in your campaigns?<IIsiMHz> night thatdarnbed sleeper cat* Baastet flufy the pillows on thatdarnbed and turns down the sheets<Baastet> Night tdb* Silvr_Dragon notices baastet* Silvr_Dragon pounces* IIsiMHz sprinkles catnip on tdc<Silvr_Dragon> mya!<NiTessine> Good morning, folks.<AltReality> uuhh...I dunno...not alot..we stick fairly close to the books...if we come across something that doesn't seem right, we change it.* Baastet sighs<raleel-laptop> what time saving things do other DMs use?<Baastet> Silly dragon * Baastet pounces on Silvr_Dragon and puts pokemon stickers all over him (see see I noticed you!)<raleel-laptop> things to make the game more run efficiently<Tsunami> Often I give NPC's over to characters to control during combat<Harlock> time saving if using minis, get the one you expect to use that session out and behind the screen before your players arrive.* AltReality uses plastic money and pouches and as many real-world props as possible.<Tsunami> I fully agree, Harlock<Tsunami> That's interesting, Alt<Tsunami> You use plastic money for gold pieces<raleel-laptop> we have DMs, use a yahoo group<raleel-laptop> we handle a lot over email<AltReality> airline alcohol bottles...make great potions<raleel-laptop> initiative cards, excel spreadsheets<AltReality> (filled with kool-aid and such)<Tsunami> Heh heh heh<Tsunami> I often just write down initiative in lists<AltReality> initiative cards....yes I do that<Harlock> time saving initiative cards OR a paper sized- whiteboard to jot down init order and track HPs on. On Deck is another As you announce whose turn it is, also annonce who is next so they can decide what they want to do.<Tsunami> Works best for me<raleel-laptop> nod, that's what i do, harlock<Tsunami> Good idea on announcing who's next, Harlock<Tsunami> I would do that, but my players seem to know before I do<Tsunami> )<raleel-laptop> we put a time limit on deciding actions* Nichar leaves and haunts aim as buddha the dm<AltReality> problem is when they get to higher levels and want to throw simple skels at em...<AltReality> like... skeletons vs PCs...lotsa rolling )<Tsunami> I always threated to have the characters "spend the round hesitating" if the players don't decide fast enough<Tsunami> Alt- heh<AltReality> Thats what my old DM had problems with<Harlock> that's great... my players are a little inattentive at times because we're all family and get distracted with typical conversation etc. and I'm not a complete tyrant about being in-character all the time<raleel-laptop> AltReality excel spreadsheet can help you there...a single macro can roll all those dice<AltReality> me either...we usually talk for like an hour before we really start the game<raleel-laptop> lol, ya, we talk a lot too<AltReality> goodpoint raleel...but I don't have a laptop )<Harlock> same here, Alt<Tsunami> Same here, Alt<Tsunami> )<Harlock> get outta my head, Tsu!<Sutekh> feh Laptops<Sutekh> Dodgy little breakable things<Tsunami> You get out of mine, Harlock!<raleel-laptop> most if my players are computer folks at the same corp...we all have laptops )<Tsunami> )<Harlock> Another time saver is for your non-random encounters, go ahead and have a plan of action for the monsters based on terrain etc.<AltReality> which corp is that?<raleel-laptop> the other DM and i use instant messanger for conversing in game<Sutekh> alt ocp<raleel-laptop> <a href="http://www.pnl.gov" target="_blank">www.pnl.gov</a><Tsunami> heh<raleel-laptop> national lab )<Sutekh> He works in Special Projects at OCP<Tsunami> Hello Phoenix!<Phoenix> Hello Tsunami. Do I know you by a different handle?<Phoenix> hey sollir!<raleel-laptop> let's see, what else do we do...<Tsunami> Nope, Phoenix<Tsunami> I'm just a friendly dude<Phoenix> k<raleel-laptop> we split DM tasks a lot, i do a lot of the NPC roleplaying, he handles most of the combat<Phoenix> cool, just chaecking ya know...<raleel-laptop> i herd players<Tsunami> Do you guys DM at the same time?<raleel-laptop> nod<raleel-laptop> ya<raleel-laptop> players* AltReality used to live in seattle<raleel-laptop> very hard to run by yourself<Tika> yikes yeah<Tika> more than is tricky for me<Tsunami> Wowsa<raleel-laptop> ya, me too<IIsiMHz> the more the merrier!<Tika> I stink as a GM tho<Tsunami> Next DM Seminar we'll probably be discussing "odd groups"<Tika> LOL<Tsunami> Big groups, small groups<IIsiMHz> (as long as the GM is masterful)<Tsunami> Epic level groups<raleel-laptop> well, most of them are new players* AltReality hasn't been in a game in like months unfortunately (<Tsunami> Anyways, thanks for sticking around for the DM Seminar, folks!<IIsiMHz> I did?* IIsiMHz looks at tsu oddly<Tsunami> You did in spirit, IIsi<Tsunami> )<raleel-laptop> heh, i just tried to keep it DM oriented<AltReality> wish I made it for the beginning...didn't realize it was happening right now...<Tsunami> It's okay<IIsiMHz> Oh, thanks then<IIsiMHz> And you're welcome<Tsunami> I think this one is officially over, but the discussions can still continue<Tsunami> Official time hour minutes<Tsunami> new record for dm seminars!<Tika> hehehe<Sutekh> and I still learnt nothing (<Harlock> woohoo, good show, Tsunami. I liked everyone's take, thanks for coming everyone.<Harlock> but hey, hang out, chat, this channel is open / and I'm here for a lot of em</blockquote>

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