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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Breakstone" data-source="post: 1403136" data-attributes="member: 481">March 1, 2004: DM Workshop: High Level Gaming and Cut Scenes, hosted by TsunamiTsunami> dm workshop time!* Velvet cheersTsunami> Hullo hullo hullo folks!Neko_Ali> that's it, no more cooking. Let's see who's DMing reigns supreme!Tsunami> And welcome to the Second Bi (or is it Tri?)- Weekly DM Workshop!* Seri pouncer tackles huggles Tsunami ,meow! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Tsunami> For those new here, the DM Workshop is an "on topic" chat discussionTsunami> About whatever DMing topic we find appropriateTsunami> But if the "off-topic" bug bitesTsunami> You can always talk about other things in #peanutgalleryWarmaster_Horus> hello* ColonelThread wavesTsunami> Welcome Horus, ColonelTsunami> Just in timeTsunami> Before we get to tonight's main topicWarmaster_Horus> Interesting trivia, one of the alternate names for Army of Darkness is "Captain Supermarket"* Nichar casts summon ryand ixKingOfLaw> Sledge as in CommandoSledge?Tsunami> So before tonight's main topic, I'd like to ask:Tsunami> Does anyone have any DM-related issues they'd like to discuss?Warmaster_Horus> use of FX in the gameSledge> King: yesKingOfLaw> Heya <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Warmaster_Horus> Verbose or brief descriptionsTsunami> What do you mean by "FX," horus?Tsunami> ah, i seeTsunami> heh* KingOfLaw is a member of the D20 PrC mailing list <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":P" title="Stick out tongue    :P"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":P" />Bibliophile> well, a side question related to the main topic, i'm going to be starting a high level campaign soon, and i've been wondering about any tips on introducing players to high levelsSledge> ahh coolTsunami> Sounds good, BibliophileWarmaster_Horus> How high?Nichar> KingOfLaw: There is such a list?Bibliophile> 15 startTsunami> How many people use short descriptions of each attack in combat?* Bibliophile tries toWarmaster_Horus> depends on the pace of the combatSilveras> Define "short" <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />* Mugzug does for all monsters, until the general idea is conveyedSledge> My wife and I have level 37 characters....* Psion is the owner of said mailing listTsunami> I usually give at least a brief descriptionNichar> Psion: Cool. How do I get to it?Tsunami> Say, "You chop into the lizardman's chest"Tsunami> For the "final kill" I usually give a lengthy descriptionTsunami> SOmething like:* Geist Knowcks out psion, hides him behind the plants and takes his place on the judging panelWarmaster_Horus> Brief description, sound FX and gestures are standard in my gamesPsion> Ni - are you on yahoo groups?Nichar> yes sirNichar> severalTsunami> "Your axe flies through the air, burying itself in its chest. Black viscous blood splashes to the ground as it gives out a final hiss and collapses."Psion> I think the proper title is d20 PrC. lemme check the join addressNichar> okPsion> <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/D20_prestige_classes/" target="_blank">http://groups.yahoo.com/group/D20_prestige_classes/</a>KingOfLaw> Tsunami: I usually let my players do that, especially if its an online game.Bibliophile> what about descriptions of rooms/areas?Tsunami> KingOfLaw- while at first it was just me describing things as a DM, the players have started to as wellTsunami> Bibliophile- good pointBibliophile> how much is too much?Nichar> Psion: Thanks.Warmaster_Horus> Usually verbose, unless the players are in a hurryTsunami> Sometimes, when using maps, I find myself skipping descriptionsTsunami> Although I do try to reinforce certain detailsPsion> I remember getting verbose about a killing crit with a spiked chain and I grossed my players outKingOfLaw> Bibliophile: Well, you don't want to describe something the PCs are supposed to find on their own <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Tsunami> Say, "You make your way through the many stalagmites to the other side of the cavern."Mugzug> I find I often say what the 'verbal' or 'somatic' or 'material' actions are in spells. Especially if players fail the spellcraft check to 'clue' them in on what is going on.KingOfLaw> Grossing players out is part of the fun <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":P" title="Stick out tongue    :P"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":P" />Tsunami> Psion- Heh, I had that when a mind flayer popped another illithid's head and sucked out his brainsWarmaster_Horus> hi KalWarmaster_Horus> heh hehSilveras> I like the new format in the latest Dungeon ... brief notes on what can be seen ,heard, smelled, etc. Paraphrase that, and you should be good. Kalanyr> hello pita <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" />Kalanyr> how long till hte DM workshop ?Tsunami> It's a good idea, SilverasTika> 10 minutes ago, you missed it <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />Silveras> Until the pick something to look at more closelym that is. Tsunami> Kalarnyr- 10 minutes ago!KingOfLaw> It started 11 minutes ago <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":P" title="Stick out tongue    :P"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":P" />Tsunami> <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Silveras> That's when I'd start giving details. Tsunami> Do you folks ever use NPC's to get characters to notice things?Tsunami> I must admit I'm guilty of itWarmaster_Horus> sometimesKingOfLaw> hehSilveras> A format like that appeared in an OLD Dragon magazine, before Dungeon came out. Warmaster_Horus> but in what context are you refering to using NPCsKingOfLaw> I had a bumbling old wizard trip and fall over a body in the dark, once.Tsunami> Such as: "Keith, your Giant Eagle companion Lia suddenly says, 'Hey, did you notice anything weird about that column?"Tsunami> Heh, that's funny KoLSilveras> Heh ... my last party refused to take Spot or Search. They recruited an NPC Thief to do it for them. DWizard> I've been know to have NPCs die in nasty ways to highlight the danger to the adventurers.Tsunami> Ha ha haWarmaster_Horus> Not really but, I have had an NPC yell "Game over man! Game over!" and run headfirst into a lethal trapSilveras> A party I currently play in has a Sorcerer with a net Spot of -2. His Hawk familiar (Spot +6) does most of that work for him. Sutekh> So with high level games.. is it preferably as a GM to start the game off not so high and let the characters build friendships up to get to the high level.. or start them high and then see if they can form the same bonds?Warmaster_Horus> well hi head kpt goingWarmaster_Horus> hisTsunami> Sutekh- I enjoy starting at the lower levelsTsunami> Building bonds and story arcsWarmaster_Horus> Sutekh: I prefer the 1st one... but around lvl 1-5Tsunami> I've never started a campaign above 1st level, in factSutekh> and if you start them out pretty high.. would you get complaints about everyone not having 5 magical items each?Tsunami> But I could see starting the campaign in media resPsion> So, anyone heard anything about Encyclopedia Psionica: worldshapers?Mugzug> Tsunami: Ever consider using wisdom or intelligence checks in case the PC's miss something?Bibliophile> tsunami: what do you mean "in media res" ?Tsunami> In the middle of things, BibliophileMugzug> I usually pick the PC with the highest wis or int, and roll a DC 15-25 check (depending on obscurity) to see if they notice the missed key detail.Bibliophile> ahhTsunami> MugZug- that's a good ideaascendance> People I game with always have at least one person max out listen/spot.* KingOfLaw thinks Horus watched Aliens too much <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":P" title="Stick out tongue    :P"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":P" />ascendance> Its amazing the people you game with don't.Mugzug> Then I pass the note if they make it.Sutekh> Tsunami: If you start of low to get to high. How long will that take?Sutekh> level every game?Sutekh> every 2 games?ascendance> People I game with tend to forget stuff like Disable Device <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Ostler> If you start them around 10th level they can balance cool items with time to develop relationships before going epicSledge> Sutekh if characters want to start at high levels it is often effective to have them meet only thenTsunami> Sutekh- well, my game went for about a year, and the characters reached 10th levelSutekh> kSutekh> Well Im in game.ascendance> My party's around 10th level, and its going for about 2 months.Tsunami> wowSutekh> Ive been playing roughly every week for about a Year or so moreascendance> They started around 7-8.Sutekh> and im 6thascendance> They started around 7. And they're around 10 or 11, actually.Sutekh> mid range towards 7thSledge> Sutekh 52 + games?Sutekh> yupSledge> how long do you play?ascendance> People I game with prefer fast advancement.Sutekh> 4-5 hour sessionsascendance> 3-4 hour sessions, but sometimes twice in weekend.Sledge> and how many encounters?Sutekh> lolPsion> Anyone have dawnforge?Sutekh> how am I supposed to rememberTsunami> We have 7 hour sessions on averageSutekh> ...umSledge> guess. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Sutekh> perhaps 2 encountersSutekh> maybe occasoinaly 1Sutekh> sometimes 3Sutekh> But rarelyTsunami> So who here has actually DMd or played in High Level Games?Tsunami> We'll say "Above 10th level" for high levelascendance> I have.Warmaster_Horus> I haveSutekh> not meheimdall> I have.Psion> We gather for about 6 hours but BS for half of it. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />DWizard> I haveSutekh> My highest level was 10th level Drow Invoker* Dredge hasn't* Velvet says nopeOstler> I run a game that started at 10th and when we restart will be at 20thSledge> so 30 hours per level and 15 encounterBibliophile> i will be running one soon <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />ascendance> I played an Epic level game.Psion> My last 3e campaign got to 22nd levelWarmaster_Horus> But I was the only high level, I had a PC at lvl 15, while the others had 2-9Sledge> roughly 4 times as slow as "normal"Silveras> My players managed to get a TPK well before 10th level. Every time. Ostler> there are 5-6 players, some playing 2 charactersSilveras> 9th is their highest, historically. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> 2nd Edition. ascendance> When my party gets too high level, I'll just send them off into Planescape.Sledge> ran some 2e high level...Sutekh> I dont tend to like thatSutekh> people playing 2 characters at same timeSledge> a little 3rdTsunami> What do you find is the main difference between "High Level Adventuring" and "Low Level Adventuring?"* Mugzug is dming high levelSutekh> MoneySutekh> Im always poor.Warmaster_Horus> Scope of thingsPsion> Started at 1st as a 2e game, converted to 3e at 2nd level, advanced to 22nd level over 2 yearsascendance> The annoying complexity of creating and running encounters.DWizard> Transportation and spellsSledge> currently me and my wife semi-free form with our 30 somethings chars.Mugzug> The fact that you have to think about general 'situations' as opposed to encounters overall.Silveras> I agree.. transportation and magical answers to mundane obstacles. Ostler> Transportation and gathering informationascendance> Transportation is a big one. But I always think of transportation as a good thing.Psion> Biggest Problem With High level adventures: Iterative Attacks!Sutekh> the fact that some characters can fly and others are still riding their original horses <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Warmaster_Horus> Low level adventuring usually involves an area the size of a state ost of the time IME, high level ones have global scope consequenceTsunami> I agreeWarmaster_Horus> mostascendance> Maybe its because I play a lot of modern games, and like the options involved in having lots of travel.Tsunami> What techniques do you think have to change between DMing low level adventures and high level adventures?ascendance> Many people see fast travel as a bad thing. I think its a good thing.Sutekh> That is a good point those ascSutekh> All of this has been about Fantasy high level gamesascendance> Greater familiarity with the rules is a big one, Tsu.Sutekh> What about modern high level gamesSutekh> or sci fi high level gamesSilveras> Villains need to be savvier about their spells. Tsunami> Ascendance- I agree with the fast travel = good commentBibliophile> how much harder is it actually to "stay ahead" of the players?Mugzug> Using nondection, nystuls magic aura, and actually knowing what your npc's can do.Psion> Greater willingness to wing it. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />heimdall> Tsunami: more intelligent enemies in general... there is a reason they are high level.Warmaster_Horus> Tsunami: Bigger things... Bigegr plots, bigger villains, bigger consquences... You need to work those out before plunging into the gamePsion> Having strategic villainsOstler> High level bad guys don't survive to be high level without being intelligent.DWizard> High level adventures require more planningSilveras> The TPKs I mentioned often happened because the PLAYERS failed to adjust their tactics to the changing nature of their opponents. Sutekh> i think it forces Gms to do more work. High level characters means the gm cant just rock up to a game and make it up. Gotta do some prep or the players are gonna go so far outside the box they will find their own boxSledge> economics are bigTsunami> From reading online I find that the entire nature of the "adventure" changesWarmaster_Horus> And players in high-level games have bigger effect on their enviroment since their powers are geometrically greaterTsunami> Instead of raiding a dungeon to save the princessMugzug> Also picking your spells is a major problem. A lot of high level wizards are not going to use offensive 1st through 4th level spells due to saves. I try to find my buff spells in that area.Tsunami> You're summoning armies to save an entire raceSledge> with Epic there is rarely an actual "adventure" unless a dungeon is entered.ascendance> Sutekh: That's a big problem with high level. However, I think that's just part of a problem with D&D and D20 in general. Its much easier to run, say, Amber or Hero Wars at high levels with less prep.Warmaster_Horus> IndeedSutekh> Tsumai: Not neccesarily. I fought Kobold and ORcs at level 1. Im still fighting them at level 5 and 6DWizard> Hats off to Amber for high level playascendance> The problem with high level really is prep.tecnowraith> helloascendance> At the same time, its harder to prep, because players can go more places and do wierder stuff.Tsunami> Well what techniques do you think a DM can use to help prepare for High Level games?Psion> Anyone ever read my Drow thread?heimdall> Sutekh: My players were afraid of kobold hordes when they were 2nd. Now they're afraid of a new tribe of kobold psions and the PCs are 7th. Tsunami> Welcome to the DM Workshop, Technowraith!Bibliophile> do you have any tips for introducing players to high level plots?tecnowraith> I remembered this timeSutekh> Heimdall: I dont think its right to just put down a monster when there is no reason for monster to be therePsion> "Players meet plot; plot, meet players"Sutekh> I know RPGing is about fantasyWarmaster_Horus> Bibliophile: Blast from the past... A villain that was defeated long time ago resurfacesSutekh> but players also expect some level of realityTsunami> Bibliophile- from what I've read, the players often find their own plotsOstler> Anybody ever heard of Tucker's Kobalds?ascendance> I think a big help for the DM is to come up with a few key high level NPCs, and then find some appropriate high level monsters.Tsunami> At that level they have a ton of contactsSutekh> Giving levels to the lower level creatures is a good ideaSutekh> I thinkSilveras> Don't be so fixed on running "your plot" that get mad when the players go in another direction. Bibliophile> i was thinking of starting off the campaign with an intentional TPK, and then having the characters raised hundreds of years later by a desperate societyTsunami> That's an interesting idea, Bibliophiletecnowraith> well most people here know that I have been building a world and ask opions and helpheimdall> Sutekh: agreed. Tsunami> But you may want to be carefulascendance> Bibliophile, I'm not sure I'd enjoy that, but you can try it. Smacks too much of bait and switch.BardStephenFox> Heh - Tucker's Kobolds were great. My players fear all creatures great and small.tecnowraith> opinions i meanascendance> On the other hand, its fair to say that all the characters have been brought together because they've been raised by a future society.Tsunami> Bibliophile- I'd suggest just having the total party kill be flavor text before the campaign startsSutekh> Im playing a Halfling Paladin in said game. Ive learnt to fear kobolds and orcs now because they are some nasty fightersSutekh> esp when desperateTsunami> hehascendance> And you could run short sessions for each player about the events leading up to the character's death, like a prelude in Vampire.Warmaster_Horus> Bibliophile: Indeed... make it a cutsceneOstler> Tucker Kobolds demonstrates that high level parties can be easily challenge with goo tactics, and intelligent bad guysPsion> Well all, gonna runBardStephenFox> Part of the key to keeping the "easy monsters" a challenge is to give them a believable leader.Warmaster_Horus> bye PsionMugzug> Biblio: Not a bad idea... I can always use that as a backup in case I do TPK.Bibliophile> hrm...Warmaster_Horus> Bibliophile: Cutscenes re good toSutekh> if you start adding classes like Eyes of Grumush to orcs and stuff.. then they start to get real nastyBibliophile> how do you guys do cutscenes et all?tecnowraith> I have question for my world buildingBibliophile> i haven't had much success with those in the pastWarmaster_Horus> I have one at the start of the campaignascendance> describe what happens.Tsunami> You mean you want to discuss... a tangent on cutscenes?Tsunami> <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />DWizard> I've never used a cut sceneSutekh> I cant say ive seen a cutscene used in a long timeBardStephenFox> My players probably know enough that if they see well coordinated easy guys, they have a nasty villian in the background. Then they have to figure out who/what is causing the organized mayehm.KingOfLaw> Only in video games <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":P" title="Stick out tongue    :P"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":P" />Warmaster_Horus> Usually have one every 3 r so sessions, to keep the players, not the PCs, up with what's happeningheimdall> Bibliophile: I preface it with "cut scene" to let 'em know. Then I tell the tale like it was a story.Tsunami> Horus- describe what you mean by a "cut scene"ascendance> The last cutscene in my campaign happened when Bane appeared, destroyed the shield of Gargauth, and absorbed the life force of everyone in Hillsfar <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />BardStephenFox> My playes love cut scenes!Silveras> Cutscenes feel to much like a movie or videogame for my taste (too much a spectator thing). Tsunami> Or give us an exampleWarmaster_Horus> Tsunami: Sure here is what I did...tecnowraith> guess I have to waitSutekh> What I do is post last weeks game happenings on a websiteascendance> A pair of players witnessed the whole thing from a nearby hillside.Sutekh> That way players can keep up with what is going onheimdall> Silveras: they should be used to heighten the game... overdone and they are quite boring.Sutekh> and I keep a recordSutekh> for others to readBardStephenFox> I once used a cutscene to show the falling of a distant city to an undead army.Sutekh> I think Pictures are better than a thousand words sometimesBardStephenFox> Over the next several session, the PC's met survivors fleeing.Sutekh> Showing a picture of a burning citySutekh> or townTsunami> I've used a cutscene to describe what an NPC under the paladin's Leadership was seeingSutekh> some people use music of people screaming of fire noise and stuffSutekh> Which I find goodBardStephenFox> A picture would have been good, except the entire setup was supposed to indicate that somethign went wrong.tecnowraith> I have a question that someone can helpTsunami> I once used some Didgeridoo music to describe the strange roar of this manticore in the mistsTsunami> What's that, tecno?BardStephenFox> The city barely mounted a defense. The last portion was three ships fleeing. Then, fireballs flew out from one,destroying the other two.tecnowraith> well most here know I am building a world and settingWarmaster_Horus> I had a group in anadventure that took place about 10 yrs after the first adventure... the BBEG was the husband of the BBEG from te previous adventure, but the heroes never confronted him... I used him in a cutscene that showed a black armored and unidentified assailant breaking into the hall of a king single handedly and killign everyone in there and at the very last burning the king himself... oh incidentally the king was involved in the death of his wifeSutekh> ooh thats a point. I mentioned it yesterday. What do people think of GMs ripping off recent release movies because they are running out of ideas?BardStephenFox> Yeah Warmaster, I like that stuff. ascendance> I think TDC should be here for that question, Sut.Sutekh> like suddenly being involved in a Helms Deep esque battle against a horde of evil?Tsunami> Horus- did you find that the players had trouble seperating their out-of-game and in-game knowledge?tecnowraith> Is better to flavored classes for a science fantasy world at 20 levels or at 10 level progression?Tsunami> Sutekh- As long as the players don't mind, I think it's fineascendance> tecno: I'd recommend 10 level progression so you can use D20 Modern.Tsunami> Tecno- I agree with ascendance* Sledge (~Sledge@h68-144-187-142.cg.shawcable.net) has joined #dnd3eWarmaster_Horus> Tsunami: No, but my players are good at thatheimdall> The last time I significantly used a cut scene was when the party was depending on an NPC invoker to make it to the docks to get some aid. They'd adventure a little, I'd cut to the NPC and the progress he had made. They were extremely worried he wouldn't make it.thatdarncat> sut, I'll have a link for you in a minuteSutekh> link to where?DWizard> Nothing wrong with playing or running a movie as long as the end result isn't written in stoneTsunami> That's very cool, heimdallTsunami> I'll have to use thatBardStephenFox> My players never had their PC's use out of game knowledge, but the players themselves loved speculating on what was happening.ascendance> But now is the wrong time to ask that question, because most recent movies have been teh suck.Sledge> even better if the ending isn't availabletecnowraith> I do not like attribute classes and to me it does not fit my worldSledge> change just enough to throw the characters offSutekh> SWizard.. I dont know... I think its a cool factor that isnt so good for gamesSeri> Hi lo Guest you can change your nick by typing /nick new nick where "new nick" is your chosen nick <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Warmaster_Horus> Tsunami: But I like the tension and foreshadowing that cutscenes build... If done properly that isTsunami> I find I have trouble not using stuff from moviesSilveras> See, I work differently. I *never* give the players info their characters would not have. Sutekh> 'It would be cool if I could fit that battle in this game even if it dosnt fit the current tone of the game'Tsunami> I was pondering some At Sea encountersthatdarncat> re using recent movies for ideas: <a href="http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=78827" target="_blank">http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=78827</a> (SERI STAY OUT!)Tsunami> And I was thinking: A pirate captain with a crew of... skeletons! Yeah!"BardStephenFox> Silveras, why not?Tsunami> And then, of course, I realized my mistakeTsunami> <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Seri> like i listenSeri> click clickSutekh> well who was talking about using a crew of Wood Golems?Sutekh> and having a pirate democracy?Silveras> Because they enjoy discovering things through their characters. Warmaster_Horus> Vax I thinkthatdarncat> bah she lookedthatdarncat> seri sucks!ascendance> For the next story arc in my campaign, I'm ripping off a past campaign.heimdall> Silveras: I tend to if it passes a simple test: 1) it heightens the game and 2) having the out-of-game info doesn't provide a signficant assist Tsunami> Sutekh- That's me!Sutekh> youTsunami> And I've still got my Op boot out for kicking!Tsunami> <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Sutekh> That made me laugh for ages <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />tecnowraith> did yall get get my reply?Sutekh> Pirate Democracyascendance> tecnowraith: Why don't they fit? They're designed to be generic.Sutekh> hehehTsunami> One of these days, Sutekh!Silveras> I also tend to run suspense-based plots. Giving info kills the suspense. Sutekh> yupBardStephenFox> Silveras, my players love learning plenty of things through their PC's. But, they also like knowing more about the campaign world. The above city scene was over 1000 miles away.Sutekh> one of these days you will realise Pirates are bloodthirsty criminalstecnowraith> yeah but this world is not very genertic, its on a different world, not earthSutekh> who prey on the week <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />heimdall> Techno: I can understand your feelings about the attribute classes. you could do something similar to base classes that get built on, though, even with 10 level progression.Tsunami> When I think up cutscenes, I try to figure out a way for the characters to observe themSutekh> They dont sit around a UN table discussing who to pillage next <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />tecnowraith> heimdall, I thought about doing thatSutekh> I think in a Pirate Isles setting Tsunami that makes more senseNichar> Hi MorrusTsunami> Welcome to the DM Workshop, Morrus!Morrus> Hello* Seri pouncers Morrus ,meOw <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Warmaster_Horus> Tsunami: Try to not to show the face of the BBEg that much... Have shots of him from the back or neckdown or soWarmaster_Horus> !apok* Golem kicks Warmaster_Horus in the junk and takes your wallet!Tsunami> Any DM issues you're interested in discussing?Bibliophile> tsunami- if the characters are directly observing the scene, doesn't that run the risk of them interferring?Silveras> Besides, I also tend not to have a "hidden story" to share... my players surprised me often enough that I no longer have a "grand plot"Tsunami> Bibliophile- That's why I end up not using cutscenes much <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Bibliophile> lolascendance> I find its hard to do stuff without a grand, overarching plot.Warmaster_Horus> indeedTsunami> Same here, ascendanceheimdall> Tecnowraith: From a real world example, look at the way the US Air Force does their enlisted ranks for a job specialty. They have 3 levels, 5 levels, 7 levels, as we called them. they were supposed to represent (a) different levels of knowledge in the career field and (b) different levels of responsibilities.BardStephenFox> Silveras - Fair enough. Obviously, I would disagree to some degree, but I inderstand what you are saying.tecnowraith> so doing a 10 level base class, then the advance will be fun to do?DWizard> Long term plots are very importantTsunami> What I try and do, though, is give enough small hooks for the characters to decide what to doSilveras> Generally.. I prefer to have an overall plot. ascendance> Though I wonder if setting it in stone so the gods of evil and good are doomed to die will work...Sutekh> Tsunami: How do you handle those in between sessions. The pcs have just finished a quest and have gone to a town to get stuff identified. Some characters need to level up and you give them a time to do so and other characters dont and are immediatly boredTsunami> One difficulty I find is making a plot in which new characters could join at any timeSilveras> But my players (recently) have not been "plot oriented". Sutekh> esp at higher levelsTsunami> Sutekh- Usually there's enough "little plot hooks" to keep everyone satisfied, and not sitting around for a long timeSilveras> To quote one: "D&D should be like comics... lots of action and no thinking in between fights"ascendance> I think I gave the players too many choices at some points, so they were a bit confused as to what they should do next.Tsunami> In fact, I've never run into the above questionTsunami> er... problem, not questionWarmaster_Horus> neither have ITsunami> Ascendance- I've had that problemSutekh> Tsunami: You dont think its a good idea to say to a player... dont worry about turning up to the session today?DWizard> Plots based around wars are very easy to integrate new and old characters intoSutekh> Cause they arnt involved in itTsunami> Wait, Sutekh, I never said that!BardStephenFox> Sutekh - I run a game with 8 players. I find the play styles vary considerably and sooner or later somebody is bored. I try to handle levelling out of game, in email or before/after the session.Sutekh> I knowascendance> D&D is a bit like a supermarket display... people shouldn't have too much choice <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Tsunami> The characters are always involvedSutekh> But.. what do you think of the idea?heimdall> Tecno: either way can be fun, it's really dependent upon the options, etc.Sutekh> are they?Tsunami> No, I think it's a terrible idea- the players are there to play the gameWarmaster_Horus> acutally when integrating new players steep level differences work IMETsunami> Why wouldn't you invite them?tecnowraith> heimdall: I see what mean, the D20 Modern classes is now will not work for my worldSutekh> What about the Wizard spending 5 weeks in seclusion making rolls to identify 100 potions?Sutekh> Does he need to be at the session?Sutekh> I dont see whyTsunami> Sutekh- What about the player spending time in jail in Monopoly?Sutekh> or the wizard crafting somethingSutekh> Cause they do that at high levelsWarmaster_Horus> But I don't think he would be doing that in the middle of the adventureSilveras> Sutekh: That's something to do by e-mail between sessions. Tsunami> I agree with HorusSutekh> Tsunami: I normally go on the toilet break at that point. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Sledge> one thing to remember is that these people are just friends...Sutekh> Silveras: Not if the game isnt run like thattecnowraith> I read Psion's review on Spellslinger and the way Brands were doneKingOfLaw> My PCs always craft stuff between adventures, unless the item in question is needed to further the plot.Sutekh> those 5 weeks could be used by the rest of the party to adventureSilveras> True. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />Sledge> they aren't (usually) married to each otherSutekh> while the wizard stays behindWarmaster_Horus> I mean when I usually run adventures, there isn't much time to take that long a break in between... Between adventures/campaigns though you can ave all the lulls you can havetecnowraith> That seem interestingSledge> temporary splits are necessary.ascendance> I generally don't have set episodic adventures. But I guess I kinda do.Tsunami> Sutekh- well then they aren't really that much of a party if they're leaving characters behindheimdall> Tecno: if I ran a modern scenario, I wouldn't use the D20 modern, either. It works, don't get me wrong, but not in the way I'd envision a world. Sutekh> why?Sutekh> The wizard says 'go... Im busy'Tsunami> Sutekh- Because, in the end, it's the players abandoning another playerSutekh> rest of the party says 'sure'* KingOfLaw likes episodic adventures...Sutekh> No its notKingOfLaw> You're talking about one sh*t adventures, correct?Silveras> Well, I must be going. Night, allSutekh> Its a player doing this stuff willinglyTsunami> I mean, if the player of the wizard is fine with sitting around while the rest raid a dungeon, then it's fineJubelo> g'night allKingOfLaw> umKingOfLaw> shotheimdall> I'm trying to encourage my players to develop secondary characters so their primaries can take some "time off"Warmaster_Horus> Bye SilverasKingOfLaw> -.-Tsunami> See ya, Silveras, thanks for participating!BardStephenFox> Sutehk - I have seen players with the need to adventure. I don't have good advice for you except to get them all invovled with responsibilities.KingOfLaw> Sorry about that very bad typoSutekh> I think its worth it telling a player or 2 not to turn up for a session.Seri> bad King <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":P" title="Stick out tongue    :P"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":P" />tecnowraith> hmm, so a futuristic fantasy world would work with a mix of both D20 Modern and 3.5Tsunami> <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Sutekh> You cant just fudge 5 weeks awayKingOfLaw> <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f641.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":(" title="Frown    :("  data-smilie="3"data-shortname=":(" />Sutekh> Thats unfair to the other charactersheimdall> Sutekh: an option is letting the PC take time off, but giving the player say a key NPC to play.KingOfLaw> Hey, it was an honest to goodness typo <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":P" title="Stick out tongue    :P"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":P" />BardStephenFox> Is it unfair?Tsunami> Sutekh- What you seem to be suggesting is that players shouldn't show up for a session if their character isn't going to do anythingSutekh> SureTsunami> But I think you're leaving out the point that this is a game that friends come together to playSutekh> I dont have a problem with thatKingOfLaw> Blehheimdall> Tecno: It can. There are a lot of sci-fi stories that mix fantasy + sci-fi. so from a concepts perspective, it works. From a mechanics perspective there will need to be some meshing, but it is feasible.KingOfLaw> They should still go to know what's happening.ascendance> Well, I think my next adventure should be interesting for everyone and involve them all.Warmaster_Horus> Sutekh: also party members turn out to be friends and companions tootecnowraith> any suggestions?ascendance> They're going to try and take over the city of Westgate, with or without the backing of Sembia. Which, in my campaign, is a Republic.Tsunami> Sutekh- I think you just run a very different kind of game <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />tecnowraith> I am open to ideasSutekh> King: If their cloistered away there is no way they know what was happening elsewhere..Warmaster_Horus> I don't think many friends would leave their companions to go off after danger by themselvesBardStephenFox> Well, it's your game Sutechk.Sutekh> Actually no Tsunami. Im only playing the devils advocate here. Ive done it once and it was for a Druid training to fight the Heirophant.Sutekh> that was way back in 2eDWizard> Tecno: if you are looking for a mixture of tech and magic, take a look at Dragonstartecnowraith> I got that bookKingOfLaw> I'd only do it if the character couldn't possibly be used.Warmaster_Horus> Another interesting thing that can be done is to split the groups up and run 2 games till they merge again* KingOfLaw likes dragonstar ^_^Sutekh> What happens if the player himself suggests that he will miss a week because he is cloistered away?Tsunami> Sutekh- well, if you wouldn't mind, let's leave the devil out of thisSutekh> loltecnowraith> DWEizard my question is more on classes Tsunami> We're talking about what us DM's doheimdall> Sutekh: if the player needs to miss a week, that's a convenient excuse.Tsunami> Not what figuritive weirdo groups doTsunami> <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Sutekh> Graazt then?Nichar> KingOfLaw: So do I.. How hard is it to update to 3.5?Tsunami> So, if you folks don't mind, let's gravitate back towards the main topicNichar> sorry...Tsunami> Here's something I'm interested in:* Nichar will be good nowBardStephenFox> I run a game and I play in a game. I have no problem with players that can't make it being absent. And as a player, I have no problem with the others wanting to do something else while I am crafiting items.Sutekh> Sorry Tsunami.. I only brought this up because it will happen in higher level gamesSutekh> A wizard wants to make his itemsSutekh> A cleric wants to make his golemsTsunami> For you gaming veterans, how has High Level Gaming changed throughout different editions?Sutekh> and you do that at high levels <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />KingOfLaw> Not very hard. Most of the weapons rules and such are completely on their own. No such thing as a giant laser gun unless its on an actual space ship <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":P" title="Stick out tongue    :P"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":P" />Sutekh> ( I assume Clerics can still make Golems <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> )DWizard> Tecno: are you looking to make classes more generic or more specific?KingOfLaw> o_oWarmaster_Horus> Tsunami: The epic level is pretty much a game on ts own now...BardStephenFox> Different through editions? Good question. I'm not sure I ever had a character legitimately make it above 11th level prior to 3.0Nichar> kingoflaw: ok.KingOfLaw> Well, depends on if clerics have fabricate.Tika> (no, only cats can make Golems <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> )Tsunami> Horus- was that different back in 2e and 1st edition and OD&D?heimdall> agreed. there is a significant difference once you hit epic with the epic feats, new magic, etc.Sutekh> (I really hate cats <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> )Warmaster_Horus> Tsunami: ah I played AD&D not 1st ed D&DTsunami> Heh. I'm just spouting editionsTsunami> Was that different in AD&D?heimdall> In 1st edition AD&D it was possible for a relatively snuffy assassin to take out Merlin. I miss that possibility, albeit small.Warmaster_Horus> Less powerful PCs, less powerful humansTsunami> InterestingSledge> multiclassing has been the major change I've noticedWarmaster_Horus> IndeedTsunami> So do you think Epic Level Gaming is more powerful in 3.X?Sutekh> lunch time <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />BardStephenFox> Yes, a high livel multi-classer was not that different from a singleclasser in terms of individual class power. but, the flexibility was a bg difference.ascendance> Tsu: Not compared to Dark Sun <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Warmaster_Horus> Indeed... I mean in AD&D the highest you could go was what? 30? and even then unless you had Quest spells there wasn't much differenceSledge> a character that was 27/24 in second is now 35th level which leaves the character both less and more powerfulKingOfLaw> Actually, I saw a 40th level tableSledge> epic level is potentially more powerfulSledge> I ran stuff with the 2e High level bookSledge> no limitsSledge> even FRA had rules for 30some levelsSledge> that reminds me I need some Epic phaerimm conversions still.Tsunami> How about other systems?Warmaster_Horus> High level?Tsunami> You mentioned Amber. How does it handle Epic Level Gaming differently?Neko_Ali> by playing Amber....Neko_Ali> all the PCs are basically demi-gods, correct/Sledge> the 2e book wasn't called EpicNeko_Ali> ?Warmaster_Horus> I liked WestEnd Star Wars, even though you had to load bucketfulls of dice at high level, if you had a computer geek in the group they could have written a dice roller to get rid of that problemSledge> "DM's Option High-Level Campaigns"heimdall> Yup, I remember that book.Sledge> very lame book mind youheimdall> I wasn't a big fan of any of the option booksSongwind> 'loSledge> iirc intro mentioned how the other thought the book was a bad ideaTsunami> Do you think 3.x has handled High Level/Epic Level Gaming better than previous editions?Nichar> Yes.Warmaster_Horus> I think soSledge> better, unless you're a slave to CRsheimdall> I think it has handled epic gaming better, but I dunno about the 10-20 range.BardStephenFox> I think it scales better and gives you a lot more options for the character.Songwind> I would cautiously say "yes"Songwind> Though 7-12 remains my favorite level range.Tsunami> In future editions, what do you think could be improved for high level/epic level gaming?BardStephenFox> QAt one point, it would have been silly to watch a battle between a high level fighter and a high level wizard.Sledge> because a power focused character will literally be a couple levels more powerful than a character that was developed for fun/story.Warmaster_Horus> Tsunami: Less of itheimdall> I think going back to a fixed HP progression would be best. Having a barbarian continue to get 1d12. yowch!Sledge> Easier encounter generation. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Warmaster_Horus> I like how SWd20 keeps it simple and puts a lvl capSongwind> Divine beings shouldn't have stats. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":P" title="Stick out tongue    :P"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":P" />Nichar> Why not?Sledge> Songwind I think that has nothing to do with epic so much as Campaign styleSongwind> I just don't like for mortals to be able to truly rival the power of gods. It's just a personal preference thing <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Nichar> okSongwind> Sledge: I know.. thus the <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":P" title="Stick out tongue    :P"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":P" />Sledge> I'm a big fan of Moorcock, stuff like like Corum..Warmaster_Horus> Songwind: I like them to rival gods, but not in a systematic waySongwind> Sledge: well, both Elric and Corum were enslaved to godlike beings themselves, so it's not quite the same thing.Warmaster_Horus> I mean a mortal rivaling or figting a god should be rare occurance, and I think having stats and systems for it , just makes it banalheimdall> agreed. there might be a way to defeat a god, but it's not by the power of one's swordarmTsunami> I think it's good, though, to at least have options for fighting godsSledge> Corum killed gods howeverWarmaster_Horus> and I think fights between gods should be done in "cutscenes"heimdall> Sledge, it's a matter of flavor and tone of the setting, I suppose. I prefer to keep my gods untouchable.Warmaster_Horus> Sledge: How many Corums were there?Songwind> Sledge: so did Elric. But, Elric had Stormbringer and Corum had the hand and eye, both of which were more or less divine in their own rights.Songwind> And without them, they'd have been so much hero-butter.Warmaster_Horus> How about splitting groups... are you for or against it?Songwind> That is the sort of thing I can get into. Or godly avatars that can be taken out, or even gods which can perhaps be defeated but never permanently, like the Olympians.Tsunami> I'm against splitting up groupsTsunami> I think it stretches the session too muchWarmaster_Horus> Reasons?Songwind> I don't mind splitting up groups from time to time.Tsunami> And leaves players boredSongwind> but not regularlyWarmaster_Horus> Splitting in a sense that half of the gorup doesn't come to that sessionWarmaster_Horus> and the next session the other half doesn't attendTsunami> ahTsunami> I've done that in the pastTsunami> The halfling barbarian's character couldn't make itSledge> Horus: one CorumTsunami> er, player, not characterTsunami> <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Tsunami> So I had the character fall down a pitTsunami> And then we played a seperate adventure in which the other players made new characters to runTsunami> Just to get the halfling back to the same level as the other charactersTsunami> It worked wellTsunami> But I've only done that twice in the campaignTsunami> How about the rest of you?Tsunami> Splitting up the party: Yes or no?Sledge> yes occassionallyBardStephenFox> My players sometimes run in different directions. It usually turns out less than good.Sledge> I run back and forth between two tables until the players get the hint.Warmaster_Horus> I like doing it sometimes... One time I had 2 players fall down a mine shaft and play 4 seperate session, while the other players mourned their loss, thinking that they were dead, and continued on the adventureSongwind> Ah, splitting up like that I haven't ever done.Warmaster_Horus> Was a nice reunin at the endBardStephenFox> But, I do my best to let them interact with the world in the way _they_ want to.Songwind> Never had that many players for long enough to plan it <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Warmaster_Horus> actually I am sorry it was 7 sessions not 4BardStephenFox> At high levels, I think it becomes more likely that they will do that intentionally.* Dredge wonders which horus is the real horusDredge> <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />Horus> I just wanted the room to have 45 people disregard this HorusBardStephenFox> When they are trying to get help from diverse sources, there is no reason not to use magic to get places fast.Horus> I dont like 44Tsunami> heh* Songwind has very slightly nerfed magical transportation in his current campaign.Warmaster_Horus> Well since I am running WH lately, teleportation is pretty much out of the question, so no headache for meTsunami> Has anyone here used High Level Modules in their games?BardStephenFox> When you have teleports, telepathic bonds, sendings, plane shifts and a slew of other high level spells, you do have to be ready for your players to decide to do something really odd.Warmaster_Horus> Not meOstler> I have a group in Banewarrens..but I think they are starting to get bored with itSledge> ran the 2e Labyrinth of Madness.Songwind> Bard: That's for sure. I will never forget the first time I heard the words, "Maybe we should look for help on another plane?"Mugzug> Actually the book of Eldritch Might by Monte Cook has some spells that address the teleport issueSledge> nothing in 3e I've seen is high enough yet.heimdall> If you're used to running investigative games (CoC for instance), you have the same issue in a localized setting, though.Warmaster_Horus> I could never work with modules... I end up turning them into my kinda adventures, so no need to sped money there <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":P" title="Stick out tongue    :P"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":P" />Songwind> I haven't used a prepared module for about 10 years I think.Tsunami> wowWarmaster_Horus> spendheimdall> the last prepared module I used was L1 a long time ago.Mugzug> As for modules, I use them as a basic idea. Then I completely change it.BardStephenFox> I haven't bought a module since the 80's.Tsunami> What do you folks most often change about the modules?Mugzug> Just about everything.Warmaster_Horus> I change everythingNeko_Ali> I just usually pull things like npcs and maps from adventuresSledge> story, stats, names, bad architecture/ecology.heimdall> I keep the basic outline of the map <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />BardStephenFox> When I use adventures, I localize them to my gameworld, then I will tweak them to accomodate the PC's so (hopefully) everyone has a valid role.Songwind> When I did use them, I changed enough of hte background to make it fit into my ongoing campaign.Mugzug> I consider them to be mere 'templates' from which I can build, change, add, or modify their story.Warmaster_Horus> I make them low magic item intensive, change most of the monsters to NPCs, change the plots, etc etcNeko_Ali> it's a rare adventure that actually makes me want to run it entirelySongwind> Hmm.. the ladies are asking me to watch a movie. Gotta run <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Tsunami> Heh, let me rephrase: What do you most often KEEP from modules?Warmaster_Horus> byesTsunami> <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Neko_Ali> but a lot of them are good sources for ideasBardStephenFox> See you SongwindTsunami> Thanks for coming, Songwind!Warmaster_Horus> Tsunami: The book, sometimes the picturesTsunami> hehheimdall> Tsunami: the mapOstler> Keep: Maps, new creatures/items, some story elementsBardStephenFox> But, High level modules just don't appeal to me. Usually, the PC's have developed into something completely different than the module anticipates.Tsunami> Speaking of maps, when running a campaign, how much of the world do you usually map out?Warmaster_Horus> Depends on the tone and levelBardStephenFox> Once you hae characters running around in the high teens, they are powerful enough that I don't think a rather generalized module works.Warmaster_Horus> for low level and place-oriented, I map out the region and te surrounding regions... For others pretty much everything aside from "unknown" regionsBardStephenFox> Eh, I map out very little of the world, I'm lazy that way. I try to have enough so there are places to put ideas.heimdall> Tsu: I like a lot of detail. I've run a spur-of-the-moment campaign before, but I try not to. I enjoy writing "lore."Warmaster_Horus> Kilroy the BBC talkshow host?Mugzug> I don't map the world. I map the movers and shakers of it. Anyone doing something I put down on paper.Sledge> mapNiTessine> When I'm not using a ready campaign setting, I tend to use Generic Campaign Setting Mk.1... Meaning that the world is a tavern, a mysterious stranger, and the road to a dungeon, the map of which was lifted from Dungeon.NiTessine> I hate drawing maps...Mugzug> If I need a location, I just open the book, read the couple of paragraphs on it, and then wing it.Ostler> I have a general map of the main continent, and a lot of non specific maps I insert as needed. Plus, maps of areas I expect the characters to visit in the next session or 3Warmaster_Horus> I like drawing maps, but i like drawing the landscape or a view of a particular region morethatdarncat> I've got a campaign setting I've slowly been adding to for yearsthatdarncat> it's sort of become my default settingWarmaster_Horus> Or I use oes from other sourcesNiTessine> Hello, Kaodi.BardStephenFox> As a question, what does everyone generally consider to be "High Level"?Kaodi> Hello.Kaodi> 15+Warmaster_Horus> BardStephenFox: anything above 10 for mekilroy> Upwards of 15th level, NiTessine> Bard, double-digit levels...Ostler> 10+Tsunami> 10 and above for meNiTessine> No campaign of mine has ever survived past sixth level.Ostler> 20+ is "epic"Kaodi> 15+ is high level, but anything double digits is fairly heroic.Sledge> 15+Tsunami> (although 10 is the highest I've ever run a game for)BardStephenFox> How do you handle Legend Lore? By the books, 11+ is "lgendary".Warmaster_Horus> for me... 1-5 is low, 6-10 medium, 11-15 high, 16-20 ultrahighTsunami> I agree, Warmasterkilroy> IMO, 11+ means that the character's stories *last* kilroy> So they get a legendTsunami> Levels 6 to 10 are my favoriteWarmaster_Horus> I like 1-7BardStephenFox> I am trying something new in my latest campaign. I am crating a god that manages legends and she requires quests to prove your worth every 5 levels.Kaodi> I consider level 6 to be an experienced person, and level 7 to be a veteran.Tsunami> 1-5 are fun to DM, but I don't think they're as fun to play inTsunami> That's interesting, BardNiTessine> Playing is fun, no matter what level...kilroy> I think those are the hardest to GM.kilroy> too easy to kill players with lucky shots at low levels.Tsunami> What are you thinking for as quests, Bard?Warmaster_Horus> on the contraire I like playing 1-5 the mostBardStephenFox> I have been thinking that if you don't want to quest, that's fine. But there needs to be a drawback.Ostler> The characters in my high level game have made an impact on the world. The Cleric has a church be built in his honor. The psion a sect that studies to be like him. etc.NiTessine> But DMing to the mid-levels is coolest, because I get to make interesting NPCs and monsters.heimdall> I like 1-5 as a player... because a lot of planning is required to stay alive.Ostler> It helps make them legends.Warmaster_Horus> I like 1-5 because the scope is small... Not over the top like high levelOstler> The other game I run in the same campaign world has heard of the characters in the high level gameTsunami> Heh, that's neat OstlerBardStephenFox> Interesting question. I was planning on tailoring the quests to make it interesting for each PC. So, I haven't decided yet.Tsunami> What have they heard?heimdall> In my old group we did that a lot. Shadowrun was a perfect example. The characters we played previously became contacts for our new ones.Ostler> In fact, they have a statue of the psion, though they don't know it's signifigance.Ostler> They found it, and decided to keep it. Nobody seems sure why... <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Tsunami> Heh, that's coolSledge> I like it from 9 upBardStephenFox> I think the key is that I will have the drawback for not questing being an exp penalty. That helps keep NPC's a bit lower level. The advaantage is that you are much less likely to be "noticed".Tsunami> Say, on a Tangent, here's another topic:BardStephenFox> So, maybe a high level assassin never quested and some of the common divinations don't work. I think it will throw them for a lopp later on in the game.Tsunami> How have you folks used Intelligent Items in your campaigns?Warmaster_Horus> yesNeko_Ali> tsu: very rarelykilroy> Rarely in 3e. Overmuch in 2e.Tsunami> (I suppose it's sort of High Level- it's part of high level treasure, right?)Warmaster_Horus> I used a sword that had a daemon prince in itSledge> not yet in third...NiTessine> Tsu, I haven't...Ostler> Gotta run. L8r.Warmaster_Horus> byesTsunami> See ya, Ostler!Sledge> a few times in 2ndTsunami> Thanks for coming!Tsunami> I like the idea of a weapon having a god living in itWarmaster_Horus> I used it to act as a gateway for a PC to ChaosBardStephenFox> Heh - I have had 2 intelligent items in the last few games. The first was a quested item for the local lord. They didn't really want it anyway.NiTessine> They've never reached a level high enough to justify anything more than a dagger with a magic mouth.kilroy> Blade of Tyshall?heimdall> I haven't yet in 3rd. I did it when appropriate in 1st and 2nd.NiTessine> I've noticed I also tend to be very stingy with magic items.Warmaster_Horus> I run about 1 maybe 2 magic items per groupNiTessine> In that last 6th-level game, they had a wand of magic missiles and a +1 longsword, and that's it.Neko_Ali> though it would be interesting to have a cursed intelligent item with telepathy, always telling the PC in his head that it read his party member's minds and they're out to get him <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />BardStephenFox> The second was a gift from a god to his mortal hero. When the hero died, to a nasty outsider trying to devour his soul, his god put a fragmentt of his pesonality into the sword.Warmaster_Horus> brbheimdall> Neko_Ali: I've done something similar.BardStephenFox> So, the survivors were left with an intelligent item based on the heroic charater.kilroy> I try to run right at the DMG magic item values, maybe a bit high. But I make sure it's fairly rich in potions and expendables.Tsunami> I like the fact that there's a 1 percent chance any items is magicalTsunami> er, intelligentTsunami> <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Tsunami> I once rolled up an intelligent necklace of prayer beadsBardStephenFox> Whoa.kilroy> Excluding expendable items.Kaodi> I had an idea for a few cursed items... something like, " The Anarchist's Review - +5 bonus to knowledge (history), knowledge (nobility and royalty); +5 intelligence; alignment permanently moves one step closer to chaotic )kilroy> Robe of blending 3 speeds. Works normally on small creatures. Inflicts 3d6 to medium, 5d8 to large.NiTessine> Hmm. Interesting idea I must try sometimes... A PC is killed by a magically unstable weapon, and his personality is fused into the blade.Tsunami> That's interesting, kaodikilroy> Sorry, that's a semi-cursed item.Tsunami> That's a good idea, NiTessineTsunami> Especially if a player wants to try a new character out for a little while* Tsunami sometimes gets that urgeSledge> So what tools do people here use to speed up encounter generation?NiTessine> Of course, with my normal group, the weapon would start playing members of the group against each other, and gain a backbiter enchantment...Mugzug> kaodi: But what if he is already chaotic? Maybe he has to act out chaotically once a week in some radical fashion?BardStephenFox> I manually create encounters.Kaodi> No, the item is merely designed to bring the reader closer to the writers viewpoint.heimdall> Cursed Item: +2 Berserking Sword... Additional Benefit of +2 Strength. The player who had it loved it. The rest of the party worked quickly to divest him of it.Tsunami> Sledge- I manually make themTsunami> BeforehandTsunami> Heimdall- HehNiTessine> Heimdall, even better... a sword amulet that transforms into a short, long, bastard or greatsword when the proper command word is spoken.BardStephenFox> Especially high levels, I need to make sure I know what the adversary can do.Mugzug> Encounters: I have a lot of monster manuals (mm, mm2, fiend folio, tome of horrors etc..) there are CR tables in the DMG and in the back of these books that can be easily usedheimdall> Sledge: There's no such thing as a random encounter in my campaign, much like Tsunami said.* Nichar tries to generate a list of encounters before any given sessionMugzug> Worst case, there is the random encounter tablle in the DMG that has rolls for everything including furniture and enciroment.NiTessine> So, the fighter who owns it is picking his teeth with it. The party wizard looks at him, and speaks the command word to turn it into a greatsword.Sledge> right now I'm finding I don't always want to spend my time making up 10 or 12 CR 30 something encounters...heimdall> NiTessine: that's evil. I like it!kilroy> I pre-gen 5 or 6 different encounters and use the ones that fit best for the given setting.BardStephenFox> Sometimes I will plop an encounter out if everyone is getting bored of no actions.Nichar> NiTessine: OuchSledge> stuff in the room is easy...Warmaster_Horus> back backNiTessine> That's my group. I'd like it, too, if they occasionally played something else.Warmaster_Horus> What's teh topic now?Warmaster_Horus> theTsunami> Intelligent and magic items, HorusWarmaster_Horus> ah okWarmaster_Horus> No more than at most 2 magic items per my groupsTsunami> Have you ever used any intelligent items?Tsunami> Speaking of, does anyone have a problem of "items defining characters?"Kaodi> I think that semi-cursed items done right could greatly enhance a campaign.NiTessine> Hmm... I might, of course, do the PC-intelligent item by having the item surface in a different campaign, with a different group.BardStephenFox> I'm going to split. Nice chatting with you all. Hope I said something interesting. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Warmaster_Horus> Tsunami: I do!Tsunami> In my campaign, items defining characters was not really a problemWarmaster_Horus> I hate that!Tsunami> See you, Bard!NiTessine> Bye, Fox.Nichar> BardStephenFox: LaterTsunami> Thanks for coming!Warmaster_Horus> bye BardStephenFoxMugzug> Here and there. I use a random treasure generator program that occasionally shoots one out. Then I detail its history.heimdall> Tsu: Yup. Tsunami> The items and the characters were one and the same, pretty muchTsunami> The druid had the Cape of the Montebank which added to his characterWarmaster_Horus> I sually give characters abilities insteadWarmaster_Horus> I'm sorry I am not a bye-the book DM at all <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f641.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":(" title="Frown    :("  data-smilie="3"data-shortname=":(" />Tsunami> The duelist had his magic swords that added to his fighting prowress, and therefore his characterTsunami> That's perfectly fine, Horus!Kaodi> Tsunami> Items defining characters is kind of a loose term though, you could take that one of two ways.Tsunami> We need a good mix of DM's to instigate an interesting discussionTsunami> Kaodi- good pointVelvet> don't your players get upset if someone get something great and they only get something blah?* Nichar created an intelligent longsword once...* IIsi50MHz jams while soaking up the conversationNichar> never got to use itheimdall> I tend to select my items based on the development of my charactersTsunami> I suppose in my campaigns items sort of define characters, but it's more of a good thign than a bad thingTsunami> Velvet- that's never actually happened in my campaignMugzug> I see my campaigns tend to define what sort of items my PC's will want...Mugzug> Like when I throw demons, they use holy items...Warmaster_Horus> Velvet: My usuals and payers that I am exposing to my style, usually have huge gaps in powr between each other... But I try to make it fun for all of them and no complaints so far <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":P" title="Stick out tongue    :P"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":P" />Mugzug> If I use fire resistant creatures, they start getting Wands that do cold spells, etc.Warmaster_Horus> playersVelvet> ahkilroy> I try to avoid the PCs turning into nothing but steeds for the gearkilroy> I prefer lots of minor items, functional but nothing that stands out.heimdall> kilroy, that's my preference, too.Tsunami> In a story I read recently, a fighter battled with a huge ogre who used his own disembodied head as the head of his maceTsunami> He had a good lineKaodi> Would you consider it OK for items to define the character that created them?Tsunami> "At least I know who is the master and who is the weapon!"Tsunami> I'd say so, KaodiWarmaster_Horus> I would consider it OK for the creators to define the weapon <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":P" title="Stick out tongue    :P"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":P" />heimdall> i try to focus on the story, so the magic items have to fit. I don't use the random tables in the DMG. Same thing is true of the encounters I build. They need to fit myplot.kilroy> I'm with HorusNeko_Ali> night allWarmaster_Horus> Kinda like having a little bit of his/her essence bleed into the itemWarmaster_Horus> bye nekoTsunami> Goodnight, Neko!Tsunami> Thanks for coming!Harlock> seeya AliTsunami> The paladin in my campaign actually forged his own armorWarmaster_Horus> and making items that are not in concordance with the ones from DMGTsunami> Quite coolheimdall> i would like to see my players get to that point, tsunami.Warmaster_Horus> Like the sword one of my wizard players created for the fighter characterTsunami> That's neatkilroy> One of the clerics in my game is making a puzzle crypt. It will raise dead but requires massive effort to assemble.Warmaster_Horus> He basicly "enchanted" it as he died, and thereafter that sword really started to hurt creatures of ChaosTsunami> Heh, coolTsunami> I love it when players come up with cool stuff like thatKaodi> That would be interesting, creating an item that has your life essense as the final component, hehehe...Warmaster_Horus> Kinda acted like a "holocron tooWarmaster_Horus> "holocon"Tsunami> holocon?kilroy> Ever played Earthdawn? That kind of thing happened with items getting powers from their past weilders.Warmaster_Horus> He was wounded in battle and dying so he just did that so that "he would be more powerful than the BBEG could even possibly imagine"Tsunami> Ha ha haIIsi50MHz> lol, wtgheimdall> horus, that's pretty awesome.Kaodi> It would also make a great alternative in campaigns that don't feature raising the dead... The wizard doesn't want to bite the biscuit, so he crafts a staff that will absorb his intelligence when he dies as long as he is within a reasonable range from it.Tsunami> Hm...Tsunami> That would be interestingTsunami> Well, any other DM-related issues anyone would like to bring up?Velvet> question? what about if your players are tired of their characters and want new ones, what about moving over XP to new character.. * Velvet doesIIsi50MHz> Tsunami, yeah: why do I suck? (^:Tsunami> Well, there's this diaphram connected to your lungsheimdall> I let new characters come in at 90% of the party average in XPIIsi50MHz> Ha. FiguresNichar> hi thatdarncatTsunami> Velvet- that's interestingTsunami> If all the players were tired of their characters, I might allow thatkilroy> I do somethign similar with a few thousand Xp behind.Warmaster_Horus> Another time the PCs killed te BBEG in one adventure... A really big BBEG and while they were gong through his "domain" in a latter adveture, they came upon a box that when opened displayed a "message" for the player(mainly the one PC that the BBEG thought was his nemesis) from the long-dead BBEG... Teling them that even though he always hated and fought with him, he also respected him... He also told him that should he be the one that survived their encounter, he was to use the "item" that he was leaving behind to face the uRangerWickett-away> What happens when the PCs level up beyond their villains?kilroy> Why aren't the villians leveling as they fight the PCs?IIsi50MHz> "behind to face the upcoming..." -clippedKaodi> If I were DMimg a campaign, I think I would be more inclined perhaps to put characters at something like the lowest characters XP - 100*levelWarmaster_Horus> darknessKaodi> Villains don;t have to be the same level as PCs... Tsunami> That's devious, HorusTsunami> <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Kaodi> They can be way lower, or way higher, depending on their inclinations.Warmaster_Horus> I always cheat at that... the BBEG is always higherDoctorOtaku> 'lo!Tsunami> Same here, HorusTsunami> <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />IIsi50MHz> allo docWarmaster_Horus> Tsunami: It was true though... He was leaving them the weapon that he intended to fight the darkness withWarmaster_Horus> Hello Dockilroy> Some of mine are lower, but they use sneakier tactics. Psycho> full house tonightWarmaster_Horus> Tsunami: But he also considered that he might be defeated so he left it as a contingencyTsunami> That's interestingheimdall> if I have BBEG who's lower, there's more than 1. Almost a TPK with 3 bugbears with a CR of 5 with the party of 6 6 levels.Kaodi> I suppose though if your BBEG is considerably lower level than the party, then his bodyguard should be a fair bit higher, hehehe...Warmaster_Horus> Hello Psychoheimdall> the tactics of the 3 almost ended the party's existence.Warmaster_Horus> Hello BruceSutekh> ssh OtakuSutekh> listening <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Campbell> Greetings Warmaster.Psycho> Blackguard + 4 vampspawn nearly finished 8 7th lvl charcatersIIsi50MHz> Contingency Spell: Give powerful cursed item to own nemesis "out of respected." Be sure to enchant to emit manaical laughter at inopportune moments.Warmaster_Horus> It wasn't cursed <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />IIsi50MHz> Curse it relative.Warmaster_Horus> He genuinely gave them the weapon to fight the darkness... making them his championsIIsi50MHz> see? curse!Tsunami> Heh heh hehIIsi50MHz> (-;Kaodi> Now, that would be evil... give the BBEG an alignment changing item, hehehe...Warmaster_Horus> When they later learned that he wasn't such bad guy himself, but a desperate one, they were more somberheimdall> i would award a goodly amount of XP to the party for that, Kaodi.Psycho> We tried dropping a Halm of Reverse Alighnment on the BbEG onceWarmaster_Horus> interesting point... I love it when the party convinces the bad guy to pull a VaderNiTessine> Hello, Mark.Warmaster_Horus> Hello MarkCMG_Mark> Evening all <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />IIsi50MHz> Allo MarkTsunami> Welcome to the Workshop, Mark!Sutekh> did Ryand come back?Tsunami> I'm not sure- he could have been in disguiseTsunami> But I don't think soNiTessine> Hello, Watchman.Night_Watchman> hiWarmaster_Horus> oh no! my nemesis is on TV!Kaodi> I don't necessarily mean change his alignment completely, but changing your LE bad guy to LN, or your CE bad guy to NE could produce some subtle and interesting effects.Sledge> someone mentioned a random treasure generator....Sledge> any chance it does epicish?CMG_Mark> How was the crowd tonight?Tsunami> Anyways, an hour and a half ain't bad. I'm going to call this as the official "END OF WORKSHOP!"Tsunami> Thanks to all participators!</blockquote>

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