DM Support Group: Was I Asking Too Much?

[GameDoc]

Tonight marks the end of a 6 month campaign I've run at my FLGS. I am moving on to run Encounters week after next when the new season starts up.

In retrospect, I am a bit dissapointed in how things went with it and probably would have kept with it and skipped on encounters if things had gone better.

I created a somewhat detailed backstory for the area in which the campaing takes place. I made sure to give a few landmarks and a few sentences about how each race came to the area and fits into the local history. Less than a written page of reading for a player. It's still in the default "Points of Light" world but an area unrelated to the Nentir vale. The idea was the player's could get insights or clues as to what might be going on or would have a chance to "take the lead" when the plot crossed through the parts of the setting tied to their race or class's role.

To help out the game shop, I chose to run Essentials so that player's might be inclined to buy an in-print book that the store carried.

Over the course of the campaign, I've had about a dozen players. Six regulars and six peple who (one or two at a time) took part at various points.

Here is what happened:

1) Only two payers had ever played 4e (not in itself a problem). But of the remainder who had not (most of them were part of another group still playing 3.5), none of them ever bothered to educate themselves on the 4e rules between sessions.

2) No one threw the store any real business. No one bought even a single 4th edition book. Not even dice or miniatures. No one even asked if I'd allow a non-Essentials character if they bought their own PHB. Not a problem during game play as once you get the basic rules everything your need is on your character sheet. But it led to two hour sessions to level up as everyone had to share my copies of HotFL and HotFK to update their characters. I finally opted to level them up at home on my own time using my DDI account and bring them revised character sheets.

3) Only a couple ever bothered to familiarize themselves with the setting or even follow the plot from session to session. This led to frequent recaps and reminders as to why they were doing what they were doing. I am not an over linear DM. I ad lib a lot and restrucure the flow so that the players can get at their goals and resolve quests in a variety of ways. So this wasn't a "you must follow my story, dammit" kind of thing. This was a "you aren't even keeping up with the story you have created." As a result the clues, hints, and other opportunities to really interact with the setting were wasted on most players. I am surprised the one who was really interested stuck with us, as he was often visibly frustrated with the others for derailing and not paying attention.

Item 2 I gelt was very discourteous to the game shop who allowed us to play, for free, in their facility.

Items 1 & 3 were more of a disappointment to me. Keep in mind, I wasn't hitting them with a "Inception" style sotrylline with infinate layers of simultaneous events they had to track. It was a pretty typical campaign where things are conneted week to week.

Anyway, a question I would pose to you all that have run D&D in game store is "I this typical?"

Were my expecations mismatched for the types of groups you get in store play? I've only run camapaigns at home with friends and most of mine enjoy a good narrative component to the game.

I know Encounters is meant for a clean break each session so that new players gan join each week, no tasks or quest remains unresolved at the end of the session, and players can easily get up to speed with a pregenerated recap. Is that about what is needed for in-store games?

 

[Aulirophile]

In-store play, where there is no social background, does indeed play better if you're doing episodic content. Encounters is based around this and LFR has a specific reward for playing modules in order so you can get the story clues to encourage it, and a penalty for not doing so (you cannot get the "good" ending in many modules if you haven't played the correct modules prior). Without any of that, just stick to episodic content.

Not knowing the rules is just a player fail. Bear in mind you're not really supposed to go over 6 people (in fact in LFR and Encounters you can't if you actually abide by their rules). Preferential seating to people who know the rules and/or by products at a limited table is the best you can probably do. Or start charging. I've charged people to have me DM at public stores, teaching kids to play, etc., ($5/person usually, though in one case when I had to drive two hours both ways twice a month it was gas+20 hr/hour) but suddenly people pay pretty close attention.

 

[wolfattack]

It just seems to me that some players in your table don't give a %$#@ about 4th Edition.

a long time ago,i already have this sort of problem. i was trying to get some players to play D&D 3.5.after asking a thousand times for them to try the game,they finally agreed with my pleas. but in the second session,it was clearly for me that they just don't liked the game.so i just said: '' Okay,lets stop here. i'll no longer waste my time with people who doesn't give a %$#@ about this game.''

My opinion: start playing with people who likes this edition of the game or whant to know how to play it. seek people who are interested. its a waste of time if they doesn't seem to bother with your game and your effort to put some decent background in the setting.

 

[Jared Rascher]

I've been running my games at the FLGS for the last few years, since 2008 at least, and I've had a great time of it. My groups tend to be six people, and I have had people swap in and out of the game, but several of the new people that have signed up for the game have be "regulars" that often sat and watched the sessions before, so the number of people that come in "cold" has been reduced.

This has been true across my running 3.5, Pathfinder Beta, Pathfinder RPG, Star Wars Saga Edition, and DC Adventures/Mutants and Masterminds 3rd edition.

How many people "turned over" at a time? When I've had a group of six people, I've rarely had more than two new people at a time, so the other four tend to provide some continuity to the group. 50% or more of the group turning over in a short period of time can make any game feel like an entirely new campaign instead of a continuation of an old one.

As far as some of the other issues, I started handing out action points/force points/hero points when people would purchase an item related to the game. So when I was running Saga, Star Wars minis or a Saga rulebook would garner some extra Force points. There were actually a few times when characters were in dire straights that they ran for the minis boosters, or decided to pick up a rulebook they were on the fence about.

When it comes to leveling up, I've never required anyone to own any book, but I have told my players that if they aren't leveled up by the time we start playing, they remain at the same level they were last time, with no leveling up during game time. If they want help or to use another person's book, they have to show up early at the game story and get everything hashed out.

I'm not sure if the above would help or not. I think it also depends on what kind of overall gaming culture you have at the store. At Armored Gopher Games in Urbana, Illinois, there have been tons of great games running just about every night at the store, and the owner is great at networking people with similar interests, especially when a game someone has started at the store is a bit light on players. Once there is a community going at the store, it really helps to establish a more "normal" social atmosphere, and not just a transient pick up game kind of feel.

But then again, my FLGS is awesome. I can't sing its praises enough. Great owner, great regulars.

 

[Blue]

I love my FLGS. (Quick plug if you're in NJ: Gamer's Gambit -- New Jersey). But when I play there we usually have a core that share a gaming style to give direction, and make sure anyone joining knows it's for a campaign, not just a session.

Agree it's rude not to purchase where you play. I've seen a table charge - $5 per person for the table, and everyone gets a $5 credit good for a year (so it costs nothing as long as you're a customer, too).

I wouldn't say your experience is typical, but it may just be that my experience in atypical - I predominantly game with friends and friends-of-friends.

 

[Riastlin]

I'm not sure if the above would help or not. I think it also depends on what kind of overall gaming culture you have at the store. At Armored Gopher Games in Urbana, Illinois, there have been tons of great games running just about every night at the store, and the owner is great at networking people with similar interests, especially when a game someone has started at the store is a bit light on players. Once there is a community going at the store, it really helps to establish a more "normal" social atmosphere, and not just a transient pick up game kind of feel.

But then again, my FLGS is awesome. I can't sing its praises enough. Great owner, great regulars.

Aye, I can attest that the Gopher is awesome in terms of its community and its owner. My game there started out with some pretty notable player roster problems (not enough people, couldn't get people to stick) but Dave kept plugging the game to the point that I now have a waiting list as I just don't have room at the table for any more players. Its nice now because we have enough players that even when one or two can't make it (which is often) we still have a good sized group.

The main problem that I think you CAN run into at an FLGS is that you may end up with a group of players whose only real ties to each other are that they are at the same table. That is, you are not necessarily getting your friends around your kitchen table per se. If you can rope them in well enough of course, they become your friends but until then there isn't really any sense of "loyalty" to the group, etc.

I don't require my players to purchase anything from the store but of course, most of them do from time to time. Most of my purchases come from the store too (as opposed to online, Barnes & Noble, etc.) but its never required for anyone to buy from the store. The owner is great in this respect in that he gives us free space and there's no pressure to buy, etc. Naturally I tend to go to him anyway though because I want to help the store out and the at most few extra bucks is worth it in that light.

The bottom line though is that not every game is going to be suitable for every gamer. Some people, even rpg fans, just don't like D&D. Or they like 3.x but not 4.0. Others like roleplay intensive games whereas some just want to kill stuff and steal their loot. It could be that your players just were not that interested in the game for any of a variety of reasons. In that sense, I think the only thing you really can do is simply cancel the game and look to start up a new one with a new group.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

EEK! A tide of gophers! Sounds like a good place. We had an FLGS like that in one place where I lived, which was pretty cool. Even so, store games can tend to be a bit on the casual side. That can be true anywhere where you have people rotating in some and the players aren't particularly known to each other outside the game. You tend to get more of a 'goofy game' when you have a fairly tight knit group that isn't especially into a given game. In the more open games you just tend to get little buy-in.

You CAN tweak your style somewhat. Make the game a bit more episodic, maybe a connected set of fairly short adventures tied together with some mechanism. Probably the simplest ploy is to do a 'Stargate' type campaign. The PCs are all members of some group that has a patron with lots of resources. The patron sends out teams of adventurers with fairly explicit goals. The adventure lasts a session or two, maybe 3 for a big one.

The most casual sort of players that just want to play, hack some things, and not really pay attention to the plot much or remember a whole lot of stuff can have a perfectly good time doing just that. Once a mission is over they can forget about it. They're hired guns, they can leave the heavy thinking to higher ups. A player that is more into the overall plot OTOH can be fed bits of information, interact with the patron a bit more, etc. They'll be more attuned to the bigger picture and the other players can leave the heavy thinking to them. If the player is more of the explorer type they can get in the loop to plan missions and whatnot.

As far as people just not bothering to learn the rules... You can't make people do it. Some of the people in my regular game have been playing 3.x for years, one of them runs a long-running 3.5 game. They're fine with playing 4e and have a couple books, and even picked up a couple DDI subs for a while, but they're not THAT into the rules. They've learned the basics, mostly, and being experienced gamers don't have a lot of trouble, but they're not going to remember all the rules all of the time. Still, I make sure they're aware of what the rules implications of things are and when they ask questions that most anyone in this thread likely knows in their sleep I just answer them. It works out fine.

There are possible things you can do. I've recommended one ploy a few times, though I only tried it out a little bit myself. Create an NPC (a Companion Character probably). Make it a leader, warlord seems optimum for this. I call this character "Sarge". Sarge is the gruff old warrior, past his prime but wise in the ways of battle. He doesn't DO a heck of a lot, but he can dish out a slide, a basic attack, an attack buff, and maybe a heal or two if they're really needed. Mostly what he gives is ADVICE. It often comes in the form of "No, no, you idjit rogue! You're supposed to be OVER HERE so you can flank that guy!" (slides character into flanking position). He can advise the characters on tricks they can learn (power or feat choices) "You know, I heard those dwarves over in the Gray Hills have this trick they use with a hammer..." (describes how Hammer Rhythm would be a great feat choice). Pretty soon the players will start second-guessing Sarge. Eventually you can use him as a plot hook when they don't need him anymore.

 

[GregoryOatmeal]

I'm about 3 months into running a bi-monthly game at a FLGS. Wow. I feel like I could have written your post verbatim. Thanks - I feel less alone now.

The store is actually more of a comic shop that makes most of its business from Magic. The store just opened and I'm trying to get the store to sell more tabletop gaming supplies. It's frustrating that only about two of the seven gamers that show up at any given time actually bought the $20 essentials book. Sometimes the others buy comics. Mostly they're just bumming my D&DI/PHB book or essentials book the others bought to level the pre-gen characters I gave them from their first session. Some (friends of the owner) insist on running their own games of 3.5 in the store from the online SRDs ("don't worry - you don't need to buy anything"). It's like they just use the store as a free place to hang out.

I set up villains and hints from the first game and design quests specifically to appeal to specific players. I set-up cliffhanger endings where the players have to decide if they want to cooperate with a shady character. Then the character that pushed for that pivotal decision, that has a specific plot-based connection with a pivotal NPC, which the whole next session is built upon, doesn't show for the next game. I find magic items for them and they lose their character sheets and need to look them up again. Players that miss sessions miss the recap because they're absorbed in making characters. I have clearly asked them to RSVP on facebook - at least a "maybe attending" or "not attending" so I know if they got the invite and can plan hooks/quests for their characters. Most don't until I prod them with text messages.

I like these guys. I'm not enough of a hardass - I can't tell them "If you forget another campaign session you're out". I should. I think the lesson is if you let flakes be flaky they only become more flaky. I guess I'm going to have to write a set of rules. I don't want it to come to "sign this player-GM contract stating you will buy a rules book or you can't play" - I mean I don't feel like I should have to ask.

I'm about to send an email to put the game on hiatus. I will continue to run exclusively one-shot games at the store. New characters every game that I'll have to print out in advance. No continuity. The real campaign will migrate to a house once I feel the gamers are committed. It's just too much effort trying to hurd cattle around in the meantime...

 

[Jared Rascher]

Its not always easy to manage players. I don't really feel that I can turn anyone away when I'm running in a public venue, if I have a spot open in my game. On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with having clearly defined standards and upholding them, and attendance is a fairly basic thing to expect.

I had one player that I really liked and was really into the campaign I was running, but he missed three out of four sessions, because of his obligations regarding his schooling. We had a talk and discussed how I was using up a slot that someone else could be using, and trying to find hooks for his character, and he wasn't there to contribute. He understood and we agreed it was better for him to step down.

On the other hand, I had another player that just left town for a few weeks, I sent him several e-mails, and as soon as I gave his slot to someone else, he e-mailed me back, and got really upset because I gave up his slot. It wasn't pleasant, but I really couldn't count on him to show up, and it was detrimental to the game.

That having been said, I really don't like to do that sort of thing, and you really have to figure out what your standard is (i.e. how many sessions, when they should let you know about absences, etc.) before you make these kinds of decisions.