Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 3475189" data-attributes="member: 4937">I've already mentioned 'Tucker's Kobolds' once as an example of how not to challenge the PC's.  The example annoys me enough that I feel the need to expound on it.  This semi-rant should in no way be considered a direct attack on Moore (whom I respect) or Tucker.  First of all, Moore may not be recalling the events correctly, the condenced essay may not reflect the actual events, and I'd just as soon not be held accountable for everything I did 15 years ago either.First of all, despite protests to the contrary, Tucker's kobolds are not regular kobolds.  Regular monster manual kobolds do not have flaming oil, metal armor, metal shields, flaming bolts, or even light crossbows.  Still, I always regarded the monster manual entries as intended to inspire creativity, and not straight jacket it.  So, lets say that Tucker's kobolds are as exceptional in thier wealth as they are in thier cunning and leave it at that.The major problems that remain are that a) the kobolds appear to be cheating, in that I doubt Tucker would make the same rulings on PC's attempting the same tactics as he appears to have regards the kobolds and b) the kobolds don't make very good use of thier resources once you actually start ruling fairly.First of all, assuming the that the PC's have as much as a 1 AC, its hard to imagine how any number of attacks from ordinary kobold snipers matter all that much regardless of tactics.  A 12th level wizard with no CON bonus, would still expect to endure like 150 kobold attacks before being reduced to zero hitpoints - and that's without any sort of spell defences or healing.  A party of just 4 would need to absorb more than 600 ordinary attacks, never mind that fighters would soak up more than twice as many attacks.  Even at 20 attacks per round, that's thirty rounds of combat, and in 30 rounds of combat with mass kobolds a high level party is going to splatter more kobolds than I can count.So clearly, if they are being more than annoyed these attacks, some 'special' rules are in play designed to favor the kobolds and these rules only work in one direction.  The PC's never get to apply them.  Can the PC's split move and fire too?  But what about the fire?  Fire is generally speaking a horrible means of attacking any high level party if you are the least bit fair about it.  The problem with molotof cocktails is that if you are struck while carrying one, there is a good chance you'll drop it, and if dropping it, that it breaks.  And if it is actually effective, then you are in trouble.  One wonders how often Tucker rolled to see if a molotoff throwing kobold who was killed, struck by a fear spell or sleep or anything else dropped his deadly load and roasted his nearby companions as well.  I'd guess zero times.  I'd also guess that never once did he Tucker roll to see if the hurled bottle didn't break when it bounced off the wizard or the donkey.  Lesson here: bottles only break in this physics engine when its convienent for the kobolds, and never when it favors the PC's.  Yet, I bet if the PC's loaded up with flaming oil, the same physics would quickly stop applying.How about the push broom inferno's?  Well, if the PC's thought of such tactics, I bet Tucker would have realized that the problems with a pushable fire are several.  If it is large and burns brightly, then it either must consume its fuel quickly or else it must be heavy and not something easily moved around by shoving it with a 10' oversized shovel.  If it is pine straw or similar hot burning light weight debris, it will only flame up for a single round after which it is just a nuisance easily jumped over or otherwise avoided.  If it is coals and ashes, simply turning them over will help put them out.  If it is wood logs, they very heavy and unwieldy.  I have a hard time believing Tucker is applying his practical experience of burning leaf piles or brush, though if I suspect he had such experience he would apply it against a PC fire sweeper.  Besides which, all this implies formations, which as we will see means easily slain kobolds.Beyond that, there is the problem that even in 1st edition, you could get quite good protection from fire.  Where is the resist fire spells?  It seems a few simple 2nd level spells would have put an end to much of the kobold's threat.If these kobolds are so fearsome, why don't the PC's make a concerted effort to wipe them out - especially after they've proved a problem and 'stolen your treasure'?  Moore makes a big deal about how helpless the M-U is.  Really?  A 1st edition sleep spell puts on average 10 of them out of commision, besides the extras roasted in thier own flaming oil.  A 1st edition 2nd level web spell is even better, filling any 8 10' x 10' cubes and one way or the other killing any kobolds trapped therein (if set on fire, all kobolds take 2d4 damage, plenty to kill any ordinary kobolds).  Stinking cloud is almost as effective.  Heck, even magic missile (6 missiles for a 1st edition 12th level M-U) will prove quite effective at taking out snipers as is perfect for dealing with anyone behind murder holes.  Where is the wand of magic missiles?  Forget fireball, where is the cloudkill, cone of cold, wall of fire, fear or ice storm?  Aren't those the spells you prepare in preference to fireball if you have the chance and are going underground?  And what about the 6th level spells?  First editions 'Death Spell' kills on average 44 kobolds in one application.  So forget the ganging up on the PC's, and if not ganging up on them they should easily be picked off by the other party members.  I mean, assuming only a 10th level fighter with ordinary bonuses (say a +3 to hit), even against a 0 AC from a platemail wielding shielded kobold, he's not missing the oppurtunity to kill something all that often even in the pre-weapon specialization era.If you are worried about corridors be set on fire, set them on fire yourself, then go in a few turns later as check for scorched corpses.  For the most part, this stuff just doesn't sound mean to me.Now, what could a kobold tribe do to protect themselves against a high level party?  Certainly not fire arrows, split fire and move, snipe from murder holes or anything like that.  That _might_ work in 1st edition for bugbears or even gnolls (with a THAC0 5 lower than kobolds), but it doesn't work for kobolds at all.  Arrow slits are practically a waste for kobolds.  Murder holes are great, but shooting arrows through them is pointless for kobolds.  For kobolds or similar weenies, I know of only one thing that actually works well - drop dangerous things from high places.  The meanest and most sensible thing to drop is not flaming oil, but kettles of boiling oil or water.  Yes, you lose something in continous damage, but boiling water has the advantage of being cheaply replenished.  You won't run out of the ingredients.  You get versimilitude as a DM, and the kobolds get a weapon that is unlikely to roast their comrades when they fail thier saving throws.  Better yet, they don't have to expose themselves the way flaming oil throwers did.   But if you are going to use grenade like weapons, by all means take advantage of ballistics and don't walk out in front of the PC's.  Instead, use the lob and pray method.  Stand behind something.  90% cover is great, but total cover is better.  Push things off ledges.  If you only have a 5% chance of hitting, you are doing no worse than firing a crossbow.  You don't need clay pots filled with scorpions; rocks will do just fine in the long run.  Instead of setting the corridor on fire, put heavy stones in hammocks high above the corridor, and simply release the cradle and let its contents fall.  This is far better and more sensible than collapsable tunnels, because its a resettable trap and doesn't wreck your koboldish home.  You need to channel and trap the PC's?  Why burning fires pushed by brooms?  You expose yourself to enemy fire.  How about mantlets, so constructed as to dig into the floor when pushed on.  How about old fashioned porticli?  Unlike barred doors, these are not subject to simple knock spells.  Ramps are better than stairs.  You can roll things down ramps.  Like wheeled mantlets with wooden spikes on the front.  Pouring something slippery down a steep ramp the PC's are on is also fun.  Another nice feature to construct is a dam.  Nothing closes a corridor like opening a sluice and sending a rushing wall of water down it - especially if you are sweeping the characters into a pit.  Again, resetable trap and it doesn't take fancy machinery and metal work.And the great thing, is that none of this requires you to use kobolds more fiercely equipped than the default ones in the Monster Manual, because how they are equipped is irrelevant and nothing I mentioned is valuable or difficult to acquire or even manufacture.  Moreover, you aren't cheating.  You aren't giving the kobolds any bonuses to hit or damage you wouldn't give the PC's in the same situation. You aren't inventing equipment not accessible to the PC's.  I don't think that Moore's party leader was shaking his head at the tactical situation, which doesn't sound that overwhelming.  I think that he was shaking his head at the basic impossibility of succeeding when the DM is basically choosing to win by fiat.</blockquote>

Verification