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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Markn" data-source="post: 4972053" data-attributes="member: 21827">I didn't follow the other thread, and people seem to be chiming in on this thread from different angles/agendas.  Apologies if I missed something relevant to the discussion before this, but here is my 2cp.First, I am entirely on board with the order (DM vs Player) making a difference.  I definately feel its Player vs DM and not DM vs player.  I havd a good group of guys, very mixed in personalities, some are heavy roleplayers, some powergames, some min-maxers.  For the most part, the mood is neutral and everyone is there for a good time and that is acheived.  Once in a while, when the tension is ratcheted up, as DM I hear comments like like "Take that, <insert expletive>, or "This fights got a TPK written all over it" and the mood changes to player vs dm.  In my own experience, it seems to be when certain abilities show up in the game (and I play a 4e game BTW) that seem to invoke this response.  The funny thing is, in 4e, we have had only 2 deaths since it came out and people rarely drop.  In the end the players overcome the challenge and there are high 5's and cheering when they pull out a tough victory.  The reality is I haven't TPK'd in years, nor do I take the "take that" comment personally but it is an indication of the player vs dm mentality that creeps in from time to time.  It is obvious that it happens.  Maybe its because there are 6 players with the same goal (defeating the bad guys) and I'm the only one who APPEARS to have a different goal but in reality I want the players to win with the added caveat of making the encounter interesting.Garthanos, you seem to be specifically discussing mechanics like level drain from previous editions.  On this point, I wholeheartedly agree with you.  It plain sucks.  I know I'd rather die back then than lose 4 levels that will take a year to get back.  I'm not sure that is relevant to DM vs Player (or the reverse as I see it).  More rather, its a bad mechanic, which thankfully has been removed from the game.  If people continue playing those old editions, that is one facet of the game that the DM/players shoud talk about before starting.  There have been great improvements to the game and they can esaily be tailored to earlier editions to provide better (fun) experience.  I just don't think it has any bearing on a DM vs Player discussion.</blockquote>

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