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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Spatzimaus" data-source="post: 1029960" data-attributes="member: 3051">Originally posted by LokiDR Scry is a save now, and the skill is gone.  Concentration is useless if you don't cast while in melee.  Spellcraft is even more useless unless you want to ID spells.I'll give you the Scry, but I wouldn't say Concentration is entirely useless.  We're talking about a fighter-type who takes one level of a caster class here.  Sure, he could decide to only take non-combat spells like Identify, but like I said earlier, this is just about as effective as a Rogue using Use Magic Device and is far less flexible.As for Spellcraft, note that one of the things I said was "Replace the caster level checks for SR penetration with a Spellcraft check".  Again, if you only want non-combat or buffing spells, you can ignore it somewhat.  We're not even counting the scribing aspects of Wizards.  But anyone who ever intends to use an offensive spell is going to want to keep that skill up.And max ranks are based on total character level.I know, that's part of why I made it skill-based in the first place.  That way, if you decide to take a non-caster level, you can make up for it at a later level.  This removes part of the drawback for caster multiclassing.So, at level 16 a fighter takes a level of wizard and takes 7 ranks in channeling, 1 in focus, and gets all the buffs he wants.So he can cast a good number of level 1 spells per day, at caster level 1.  Not exactly the most broken thing I've ever heard of.  In fact, that's exactly what I see people doing now: take one level of a caster class (especially a hybrid one like Ranger) and load up on wands.You can get high level spells.No, you'd get high-level spell SLOTS, which is an entirely different concept.  What good is a 9th-level slot if all you can stick in it are 1st-level spells?  Okay, sure, you can metamagic the hell out of it, but that costs you Feats and you can't stack Empowers in 3.5E.I think that's the crux of the miscommunication.  Let's take the 5 things I said "+1 spellcaster level" gave and compare to the system I suggested:1> More known spells (Sorcerer/Bard): you still need to take levels of Sorcerer or Bard for this.2> More spells per day: replaced with Channeling skill3> Access to higher-level known spells: still only depends on your class level.4> +1 caster level for range/duration/effect: replace with Focus skill5> +1 vs SR: replace with Spellcraft skill.The key is, I DIDN'T change #3.  To get to higher-level spells, you still need to take actual class levels.  If you take more than 3 non-caster levels you'll never reach the 9th-level spells, but even 1 non-caster level will delay you a bit.So, take three characters:Larry: Fighter 20Moe: Fighter 10/Sorcerer 10 (who we assume has maxxed the casting-related skills at 23, which is going to take most of his skill points)Curly: Sorcerer 20 (who we also assume maxxed the skills).Both Moe and Curly will cast their spells at the full caster level.  Both will have full effect versus SR.  Both will have the full complement of spell slots, including the ninth level ones.BUT, Moe will only know a small number of spells,  and his highest ones will be 5th level.  His 9th-level slots will be full of metamagicked low-level spells, while Curly will be throwing true 9th-level spells.(Also notice that Moe will be roughly the same as Shemp, our Bard 20: both have caster level of 20, both have +15 BAB, both only know mid-level spells, but while Moe will have extra spells/day, Shemp gets better skills and can cast in light armor)And that's the important part.  For combat, a Fighter 20 is better than a Fighter 10/Sorcerer 10 is better than a Fighter 10.  The Ftr/Sor has a BAB halfway between the other two, HP halfway between, and better saves than the Ftr 10.  In a sense, his Sorcerer levels increased his Fighter effectiveness somewhat.But, in 3E a Ftr 10/Wiz 10 is no better at casting than a straight Wiz 10.  They have the same number of spells/day, same caster level, same chance of bypassing SR (slim to none, against the opponents a 20th-level person faces).</blockquote>

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