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Message: <blockquote data-quote="LordVyreth" data-source="post: 2331860" data-attributes="member: 9626">Oh, I see the value of a mob template, I just think this goes too far in the other direction.  Creating a bunch of mobs to represent an army of 1,000s or even 100 of units is reasonable to me.  A "mob" of twelve ogres isn't. No, the % is simply based on a casualty rate.  A high level fighter with four attacks will almost certainly kill a commoner per swing, barring 1s.  The system currently makes allowances for removing individuals from the mob via spells and similar abilities, but unless it has been changed from the Dungeon variant, simple physical attacks on a mob never kill anyone. Again, my comments are based on the Dungeon version, since it sounds like this part is different.  The original version made no allowance for Cleave or Whirlwind Attac, and it only used the negative level penalties when using spells and effects that direction targetting individual.  So a Dominate Person or Slay Living spell would give it a neg level, though good luck doing now that the 1 HD commoners have the saves of 30 HD creatures.  Which reminds me of another thing that annoys me about the mob.  Besides nerfing the offensive actions mentioned earlier, it largely makes simple diplomatic and misdirective solutions impossible.  Calming or distracting angry mobs is a classic use for spells like Mass Charm Person, illusionary magic, and the bard's fascinate ability, but the mob not only has a high Will save than a typical commoner, it has a higher save than some 20th level wizards!  It would be nearly impossible to use such methods.  As to Area effect attacks, I believe it does 50% more damage.  Considering damage is going from "they're 1 HD creatures in a tightly-packed fireball formation, they're all dead," to not actually killing anybody unless it manages to disperse the mob, that's a big loss of power! I think any high level character who would use their followers as trap bait won't have followers for very long!  Even ignoring the traps, in a non-mob scenario, putting your followers at a point position would mean they get killed by the hundreds as soon as a gaze attack (yet another thing I think mobs are nearly immune to in this version) breath weapon, or area of effect hits them.  With mobs you have the equivalent of multiple 300 hp monsters that can get through nearly everything without anybody dying.Now, because I want to offer something more constructive than mere criticism, here's how I would generall handle the mob template.Medium mobs will have the same number of hd but require about 3x as many units.  So a 30 HD mob would have 100-150 members.Mobs would have a significant morale bonus to some abilities and to saves, but will calculate the base save values as if they were still only 1 HD creature.Any time a mob takes significant damage (say 15 or 30 hp,) it takes a negative level just like a member of the mob was removed by magical effect.  It'll be similar to the way a hydra works.A Great Cleave or Whirlwind Attack feat will let the character use multiple actions based on how many spaces they threaten.  So a barbarian standing on the side of a mob will likely have three squares of the enemy threatened, letting him/her Great Cleave twice or Whirlwind Attack three targets.  A fighter with a reach weapon like a spiked chain and standing in the middle of a mob will have vastly more targets in exchange for the greater risk of being in the mob and taking damage from it.Large sized mobs could work the same way as medium ones (so 50 ogres instead of 12,) or it could require the same number of members but take up more space and have more HD.</blockquote>

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