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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Silveras" data-source="post: 2332603" data-attributes="member: 6271">Regarding Mobs...First... I think it worth noting that these are not just large groups of creatures. They are large groups of creatures incited to rage and unreasoning violence. In short, they are not just ready to fight; they are desperate to get somewhere to do something, be that to get "anywhere but here" to "survive" or to get "across the courtyard" to "hang the child-killing thief before he gets away". Note that the Mob occupies a square 20 feet on a side; in the case of Medium creatures, that is 48 squeezed into the "fighting space" of 16. The members are not spread out and ready for normal melee; they are pushing and shoving over each other. The two samples are a Riot (Mob of Humans) and a Stampede (Mob of Light Horses). Second...Mobs, as noted, take extra damage from area "spells or effects", and "spells or effects that target specific creatures" cause 2 negative levels per creature neutralized. It seems to me that the effectiveness and value of Cleave, Great Cleave, and Whirlwind Attack is determined by the tactical skill of the one using one of them. Mobs have a reach of 0; they do not attack in the normal sense, but instead overrun and bull rush and/or trample the target. A warrior who just stands there to take that is not a very good warrior. A warrior who uses tight spaces and his own mobility to keep out of its area can attack with an "effect that targets specific creatures" (Whirlwind Attack) and take out perhaps 2 or 3 in a round. That's 4 or 6 negative levels to the mob. It makes perfect sense to me that a pushing and shoving crowd of enraged people would not stand still long enough for a warrior to get his Cleave or Great Cleave attacks. The warrior's initial attack would be against the Mob, not its members, and so the Mob does not drop when a member does, and there is no cleave. As an abstraction, the Mob mechanic fits well for some situations within the rules. Nothing is perfect, but I don't think this one is all that bad.</blockquote>

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