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<blockquote data-quote="Cadfan" data-source="post: 4691237" data-attributes="member: 40961">My thoughts are that you're making a classic Dungeon Master mistake.&nbsp;You proudly proclaim what the players knew, and proclaim that obviously they knew enough not to waste fifteen minutes of game time pursuing nothing at all.&nbsp; Technically they didn't know it was a dead end, but you claim that they knew enough to know they shouldn't pursue it.&nbsp;But obviously you are wrong.&nbsp;If they HAD known, they wouldn't have wasted the time.&nbsp; The fact that they pursued the red herring for so long conclusively proves that they didn't know it was a red herring.&nbsp;DMs, particularly DMs with simulationist bents, tend to forget that the game world exists only within their head.&nbsp; And by &quot;their head,&quot; I mean the DM's.&nbsp; Not the player's.&nbsp; The details of the game world have to get from the DM's head to the player's heads, and that doesn't always go as well as you think.&nbsp; Clearly, in this case, you failed to get across what you had hoped to get across.&nbsp; The proof is undeniable- had you communicated what you intended, this never would have happened; it did happen, therefore, you did not communicate what you thought.&nbsp;At least in this situation you only lost fifteen minutes of game time.&nbsp; Change a few words, and your post becomes a classic &quot;The TPK was totally the players fault and not mine and they're mad at me anyways!&quot; post.&nbsp; We see those about every other week around here.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Cadfan, post: 4691237, member: 40961"] My thoughts are that you're making a classic Dungeon Master mistake. You proudly proclaim what the players knew, and proclaim that obviously they knew enough not to waste fifteen minutes of game time pursuing nothing at all. Technically they didn't know it was a dead end, but you claim that they knew enough to know they shouldn't pursue it. But obviously you are wrong. If they HAD known, they wouldn't have wasted the time. The fact that they pursued the red herring for so long conclusively proves that they didn't know it was a red herring. DMs, particularly DMs with simulationist bents, tend to forget that the game world exists only within their head. And by "their head," I mean the DM's. Not the player's. The details of the game world have to get from the DM's head to the player's heads, and that doesn't always go as well as you think. Clearly, in this case, you failed to get across what you had hoped to get across. The proof is undeniable- had you communicated what you intended, this never would have happened; it did happen, therefore, you did not communicate what you thought. At least in this situation you only lost fifteen minutes of game time. Change a few words, and your post becomes a classic "The TPK was totally the players fault and not mine and they're mad at me anyways!" post. We see those about every other week around here. [/QUOTE]

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