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<blockquote data-quote="Ahnehnois" data-source="post: 6313142" data-attributes="member: 17106">What if, however, there's some kind of roll involved, a Bluff/Sense Motive? Then, the DM really has to be obfuscatory, unless he wants to actually say that the SM check failed. This may not have been an issue when the advice was written; I don't know what mechanical resolutions were typical for social deceptions back then.As I noted, illusions and some enchantments also create this issue, because it isn't an independent NPC that is lying through dialogue, it is the character's own senses that are lying, through the DM's narration. Can a DM realistically parse things so that it's clear that he's describing the character's perceptual experience as distinct from acting as a referee for various things (including that character's perceptual abilities)? Unlikely, in my opinion.Which is what I said in my first post. His DMing advice requires the players to only act within the framework that the DM has pre-established. What is causing them to do that? Are they being forced in some way to go to the dungeon and not do something else? Is there a mutual agreement beforehand that this is what everyone wants to do and they won't do anything else?In the absence of those types of restrictions, it's very difficult to imagine free-willed players acting within the mold he suggests. Maybe that's addressed elsewhere, but I struggle to understand DM advice that relies on players doing what the DM wants. They often don't.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ahnehnois, post: 6313142, member: 17106"] What if, however, there's some kind of roll involved, a Bluff/Sense Motive? Then, the DM really has to be obfuscatory, unless he wants to actually say that the SM check failed. This may not have been an issue when the advice was written; I don't know what mechanical resolutions were typical for social deceptions back then. As I noted, illusions and some enchantments also create this issue, because it isn't an independent NPC that is lying through dialogue, it is the character's own senses that are lying, through the DM's narration. Can a DM realistically parse things so that it's clear that he's describing the character's perceptual experience as distinct from acting as a referee for various things (including that character's perceptual abilities)? Unlikely, in my opinion. [I]Which is what I said in my first post. His DMing advice requires the players to only act within the framework that the DM has pre-established. What is causing them to do that? Are they being forced in some way to go to the dungeon and not do something else? Is there a mutual agreement beforehand that this is what everyone wants to do and they won't do anything else? In the absence of those types of restrictions, it's very difficult to imagine free-willed players acting within the mold he suggests. Maybe that's addressed elsewhere, but I struggle to understand DM advice that relies on players doing what the DM wants. They often don't.[/i] [/QUOTE]

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