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<blockquote data-quote="lewpuls" data-source="post: 6314056" data-attributes="member: 30518">Hobby games, not just RPGsruin explorer:You've posed your answer largely in terms of (tabletop) RPGs.&nbsp; My&nbsp; statement encompasses all kinds of hobby gamers, and recognizes that&nbsp; video games and gamers are far more pervasive than tabletop.&nbsp; Of course,&nbsp; Tabletop RPGs are now just one of many segments even of tabletop gaming&nbsp; alone.&nbsp; (You can easily make a case that we can see, in video games,&nbsp; where tabletop games are going.&nbsp; Not good.)Consequently most of what you've said is aimed at something I didn't say, because I'm talking about a much, much larger group.Whereas &quot;vidiots&quot; are video gamers who ignore tabletop when they talk&nbsp; about games, I've coined the term (looking for one better) &quot;tabledopes&quot;&nbsp; for tabletoppers who ignore video games when they talk about games.&nbsp;&nbsp; Maybe (hearkening back to Muhammed Ali), &quot;role-pa-dopes&quot; would do for&nbsp; RPGers who only talk about TT RPGs when generalizing about games.Yes, video gaming was heavily consequence-based in the 80, especially&nbsp; when the arcades were still strong and you could actually lose a video&nbsp; game (in a sense).&nbsp; Some of it still is.&nbsp; But MMOs (which are frequently&nbsp; RPGs) and F2Ps have led to the ascendance of reward-based gaming.&nbsp; I&nbsp; think this is more a symptom of a change in society (the entitled&nbsp; generation), than a cause, but who can say for sure.Another way to put this would be that games as interesting decisions are&nbsp; being displaced by&nbsp; games as wish fulfillment.&nbsp; (See link to video&nbsp; below.)The secret door example comes from recent 4e play, actually, and not a&nbsp; game I was involved in.&nbsp;&nbsp; See the comments on a blog post that &quot;weeped&nbsp; for newbs&quot;, lamenting that even secret doors seem to be regarded as a&nbsp; &quot;dirty GM trick&quot; in 4th edition D&amp;D. (I'm not being allowed to post&nbsp; links... so I cannot give you the reference) No, I don't like to be led around by the nose to follow a plot some GM&nbsp; thinks (probably wrongly) is wonderful story-telling.&nbsp; I'm playing a&nbsp; game.&nbsp; If I want a good fantasy story I'll read a novel or (with certain&nbsp; reservations) watch a movie.&nbsp; Just as, if I want to learn history, I'll&nbsp; read a history book, not play a game.You might listen to the following on my YouTub &quot;Game Design&quot; channel:(Unfortunately I'm not being allowed to post links, so you'll have to go to youtube and search for the id)Interesting Decisions versus Wish FulfillmentThe Evolution of Tabletop Games Evolution of Video Games Part 1 Evolution of Video Games part 2I've talked about this in more detail in my online video courses about game design, from which the latter three are excerpted.Sorry I cannot post links, that is SO irritating.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="lewpuls, post: 6314056, member: 30518"] [b]Hobby games, not just RPGs[/b] ruin explorer: You've posed your answer largely in terms of (tabletop) RPGs. My statement encompasses all kinds of hobby gamers, and recognizes that video games and gamers are far more pervasive than tabletop. Of course, Tabletop RPGs are now just one of many segments even of tabletop gaming alone. (You can easily make a case that we can see, in video games, where tabletop games are going. Not good.) Consequently most of what you've said is aimed at something I didn't say, because I'm talking about a much, much larger group. Whereas "vidiots" are video gamers who ignore tabletop when they talk about games, I've coined the term (looking for one better) "tabledopes" for tabletoppers who ignore video games when they talk about games. Maybe (hearkening back to Muhammed Ali), "role-pa-dopes" would do for RPGers who only talk about TT RPGs when generalizing about games. Yes, video gaming was heavily consequence-based in the 80, especially when the arcades were still strong and you could actually lose a video game (in a sense). Some of it still is. But MMOs (which are frequently RPGs) and F2Ps have led to the ascendance of reward-based gaming. I think this is more a symptom of a change in society (the entitled generation), than a cause, but who can say for sure. Another way to put this would be that games as interesting decisions are being displaced by games as wish fulfillment. (See link to video below.) The secret door example comes from recent 4e play, actually, and not a game I was involved in. See the comments on a blog post that "weeped for newbs", lamenting that even secret doors seem to be regarded as a "dirty GM trick" in 4th edition D&D. (I'm not being allowed to post links... so I cannot give you the reference) No, I don't like to be led around by the nose to follow a plot some GM thinks (probably wrongly) is wonderful story-telling. I'm playing a game. If I want a good fantasy story I'll read a novel or (with certain reservations) watch a movie. Just as, if I want to learn history, I'll read a history book, not play a game. You might listen to the following on my YouTub "Game Design" channel: (Unfortunately I'm not being allowed to post links, so you'll have to go to youtube and search for the id) Interesting Decisions versus Wish Fulfillment The Evolution of Tabletop Games Evolution of Video Games Part 1 Evolution of Video Games part 2 I've talked about this in more detail in my online video courses about game design, from which the latter three are excerpted. Sorry I cannot post links, that is SO irritating. [/QUOTE]

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