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<blockquote data-quote="Umbran" data-source="post: 6315832" data-attributes="member: 177">Strict, but neutral, use of the rules still leads to the pixel-bitching.&nbsp; And, my understanding of the origin of the Tomb of Horrors rather speaks against the neutral stance - if the GM is creating an adventure to prove the players wrong or humble them, that's adversarial.If the issue is supposed to be a test, and the players find a solution and implement it, that test should then be over, and you should move on to another test.&nbsp; Continuing to apply the same test *forever* (using the published modules as a guide to intended play - the traps exist over all levels of play) is not adding interest or challenge to the game. I think there was an issue here, in that general play seems to have been influenced by tournament play - tournament play is a scored test, where you are tying to beat other players.&nbsp; In that situation, &quot;testing the players&quot; makes some kind of sense.&nbsp; Outside the tournament, you are no longer trying to score the players against a large group doing the same thing.&nbsp; You are testing the players against the others in their party or against the GM.&nbsp; The former can lead to backstabbing, and arguing over gold and treasure (as GP = XP!), and the latter tends to lead to the antagonistic player-GM relationship.&nbsp; While it is entirely possible to not have these things develop, they are natural human paths to take in the situation presented by the rules and adventures in question.&nbsp; If non-antagonism was really desired, the game could have been designed a lot better to avoid it.And this is a common over-statement of what metagaming means in this context.&nbsp; Knowing to allow others to have spotlight time is metagaming, for example, but it has nothing to do with contriving situations, or knowing everything. Which has little to do with the old-school/modernist divide, in my experience.&nbsp; Some of the best exploration of the unknown, and mysterious and exciting locations I've ever done was in a recent Spirit of the Century game - and FATE is most assuredly not old-school in its construction.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Umbran, post: 6315832, member: 177"] Strict, but neutral, use of the rules still leads to the pixel-bitching. And, my understanding of the origin of the Tomb of Horrors rather speaks against the neutral stance - if the GM is creating an adventure to prove the players wrong or humble them, that's adversarial. If the issue is supposed to be a test, and the players find a solution and implement it, that test should then be over, and you should move on to another test. Continuing to apply the same test *forever* (using the published modules as a guide to intended play - the traps exist over all levels of play) is not adding interest or challenge to the game. I think there was an issue here, in that general play seems to have been influenced by tournament play - tournament play is a scored test, where you are tying to beat other players. In that situation, "testing the players" makes some kind of sense. Outside the tournament, you are no longer trying to score the players against a large group doing the same thing. You are testing the players against the others in their party or against the GM. The former can lead to backstabbing, and arguing over gold and treasure (as GP = XP!), and the latter tends to lead to the antagonistic player-GM relationship. While it is entirely possible to not have these things develop, they are natural human paths to take in the situation presented by the rules and adventures in question. If non-antagonism was really desired, the game could have been designed a lot better to avoid it. And this is a common over-statement of what metagaming means in this context. Knowing to allow others to have spotlight time is metagaming, for example, but it has nothing to do with contriving situations, or knowing everything. Which has little to do with the old-school/modernist divide, in my experience. Some of the best exploration of the unknown, and mysterious and exciting locations I've ever done was in a recent Spirit of the Century game - and FATE is most assuredly not old-school in its construction. [/QUOTE]

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