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<blockquote data-quote="Nonlethal Force" data-source="post: 3500841" data-attributes="member: 35788">Calm down, Mistwell.&nbsp; Please don't jump down my throat because I posted about my experiences, okay?&nbsp; Your experience and my experience are allowed to differ and we can still be friends at the end of the day!&nbsp; I'm not employing a &quot;ploy.&quot;&nbsp; I'm not even being deceptive or sneaky.&nbsp; I am saying that considering how easy it is to counter it involves a significant amount of thought and character design.In my experience, a couple of feats (or domain selections) and a couple of used spells is a significant amount of resources, considering the only thing it has cost the enemies is a successful dispel magic.&nbsp; From that point on, the cleric has to now use more resources to defeat the encounter.&nbsp; So long as when the encounter is done I have caused the cleric to expend X% of their resources, I'm happy.&nbsp; [X being whatever percentage should be expected for the specific encounter's CR.]&nbsp; Once persistant magic is down, it's down.&nbsp; And, it's unlikely that they are going to be able to put it up too often.&nbsp; Twice in a day is considered stellar.&nbsp; Thrice is considered amazing. {Assuming no nightsticks in a campaign, of course.}I agree that countering a DMM isn't going to kill your cleric.&nbsp; But then again, my goal as the DM isn't to kill the players.&nbsp; My goal is to make the game fun.&nbsp; {Again, my opinion, not fact}&nbsp; And countering the players DMM/Persistant forces them to think and use their other resources.&nbsp; In my book, that's a win.Not once per encounter.&nbsp; In most cases, once per day.&nbsp; {Assuming no nightsticks.}&nbsp; Twice per day at the worst, typically.&nbsp; So, that would be a no.&nbsp; Not all that restricitive.The way I see it, there are a couple of possibilities.&nbsp; If the party is going up against a known foe, then the known foe is going to likely know alot about who's coming up against them.&nbsp; They'd be prepared - I.E they'd want to have a few dispel magics on hand.&nbsp; That's just good tactics from the perspective of the BBEG.&nbsp; Restrictive, no.&nbsp; Smart, yes.Or, they could just be coming against random encounters.&nbsp; If the encounters are so random, then I probably don't really care too much about how challenging the combat was.&nbsp; In that case, I'd likely just let the persistant spell remain up.&nbsp; Or, perhaps use guerilla tactics that imply easier encounters which aren't resolved by kills but by retreating.There are more ways to frustrate a player with DMM/persistant up than dispel and undead.&nbsp; Those were the two easiest examples I thought of.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Nonlethal Force, post: 3500841, member: 35788"] Calm down, Mistwell. Please don't jump down my throat because I posted about my experiences, okay? Your experience and my experience are allowed to differ and we can still be friends at the end of the day! I'm not employing a "ploy." I'm not even being deceptive or sneaky. I am saying that considering how easy it is to counter it involves a significant amount of thought and character design. In my experience, a couple of feats (or domain selections) and a couple of used spells is a significant amount of resources, considering the only thing it has cost the enemies is a successful dispel magic. From that point on, the cleric has to now use more resources to defeat the encounter. So long as when the encounter is done I have caused the cleric to expend X% of their resources, I'm happy. [X being whatever percentage should be expected for the specific encounter's CR.] Once persistant magic is down, it's down. And, it's unlikely that they are going to be able to put it up too often. Twice in a day is considered stellar. Thrice is considered amazing. {Assuming no nightsticks in a campaign, of course.} I agree that countering a DMM isn't going to kill your cleric. But then again, my goal as the DM isn't to kill the players. My goal is to make the game fun. {Again, my opinion, not fact} And countering the players DMM/Persistant forces them to think and use their other resources. In my book, that's a win. Not once per encounter. In most cases, once per day. {Assuming no nightsticks.} Twice per day at the worst, typically. So, that would be a no. Not all that restricitive. The way I see it, there are a couple of possibilities. If the party is going up against a known foe, then the known foe is going to likely know alot about who's coming up against them. They'd be prepared - I.E they'd want to have a few dispel magics on hand. That's just good tactics from the perspective of the BBEG. Restrictive, no. Smart, yes. Or, they could just be coming against random encounters. If the encounters are so random, then I probably don't really care too much about how challenging the combat was. In that case, I'd likely just let the persistant spell remain up. Or, perhaps use guerilla tactics that imply easier encounters which aren't resolved by kills but by retreating. There are more ways to frustrate a player with DMM/persistant up than dispel and undead. Those were the two easiest examples I thought of. [/QUOTE]

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