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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Edena_of_Neith" data-source="post: 3631761" data-attributes="member: 2020">Here is what I hate to see:  Party:  We want another dull, unexciting, unchallenging game.  DM:  Like the last 10 games?  Party:  Yeah.  Like those.  DM:  Don't you want a challenge?  Party:  No.  DM:  It's painful to keep running games like these.  Party:  If you won't run a dull, unexciting, unchallenging game, we'll just find someone who will, and you can play in it instead of DMing.  Here's what I want to see more of:  Party:  We desire a challenging game.  DM:  But in a challenging game, your PCs may die.  Party:  We aren't concerned about that.  We are more concerned with the thrill of the challenge.  DM:  What about the roleplaying aspect?  Party:  We'll roleplay well enough, don't you worry.  DM:  This module is a dangerous one.  Party:  So much the better.   -  You know, telling the players that you're an easy DM who doesn't kill characters, has surprisingly little effect on the players in the game.  Player memories are astonishingly short.  Or perhaps it's the Roller Coaster effect.  You know?  You're heading up the first high hill of a roller coaster.  Intellectually, you know it's only a ride.  But your emotions are telling you you're in danger.  And no matter how hard you try to intellectually rationalize that you're just fine, when you are looking straight down 200 feet and accelerating towards the ground, your emotions are screaming bloody murder.  D&D is sometimes like that.  A good encounter can get the blood flowing and the heart pounding, regardless of what the DM said at the start.  Relentlessly pound at the players (as I discussed in my first post of this thread) and they forget all about anything and everything you said, and go into all-out battle mode.  -  Someone said I was backtracking.  Well, I'm not.  I think more DMs should be like the way I described, and stand by that.    So how to create a situation where more DMs are like how I described in my first post, and have it actually work?  As I said, a DM - Player agreement is needed pre-game.  Players have to want this style of DMing - there are there to have fun, after all.  I guess, players should have time to become accustomed to this kind of game, since it is demanding and exhausting and trying (assuming they want an exhausting, demanding, trying game ... and hopefully they do.)  The DM has to distinguish between being tough and being adversarial, and the players need to be able to distinguish between what is tough and what is adversarial.  That's not always easy to do, so pre-game discussion is a good idea.  I think players should demand, in general, FAR more out of themselves than I am seeing them give.  My opinion.  I think that players should complain less about the magnitude of challenges, and spend that energy on defeating those challenges.  My opinion.  I think players often give themselves less credit than they should, and they give their fellow players less credit than they should.  My opinion.  I think players oftentimes don't cooperate nearly as much as they should.    I think a DM should demand all these improvements on the part of the players, and more than that, and the players should appreciate and respect the demand and their own capacity to handle the challenge.  If the players want an easy going game, where they converse and socialize and enjoy the company of good friends, that's great.  More power to them.  But sometimes a good challenge is what the doctor ordered.  -  A tough, demanding DM (especially one on the order of what I portrayed in my first post) and tough, determined, resourceful players taking on his challenges, is the result of mutual agreement and cooperation in the group, mutual respect between DM and players, mutual respect between players and players, and a particular mindset that approves of constant strong challenges among both DM and players.  And yeah, players can do that.  Players can handle that.  D&Ders are made of hard enough material to rise to the occasion when the going gets rough.  If this is what they want, and what they agreed to prior to the game, then when the challenge comes they should be able to rise and conquer over all enemies.  And for the DM, the delight is in watching it all happen that way.  He was tough, he was hard, he was relentless and nasty and threatening and blustery and threw the book at the players, and the players loved it and ate it up like candy, and they kicked butt on every obstacle, every monster, every puzzle, every threat.  So yeah, more DMs should be tough DMs.  A simple statement, covering a complex situation, but the basic fact is just that.</blockquote>

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