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DMs are too easy on their players
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<blockquote data-quote="Particle_Man" data-source="post: 3631901" data-attributes="member: 892"><p>One thing I would need to be clear on: Does the mage's character know what you houserule stoneskin as doing? So does the mage's character know that this particular trick will almost certainly work, because of how you houserule stoneskin, and how overconfident you run dragons? Or would it be more like, whatever the mage did (magic missle, sleep, etc.), you could houserule it on the fly to make the dragon suffer? Because if it is the latter, it seems like it doesn't really matter what the players do - it looks more like the DM telling a story, with the players occasionally nodding. The former situation would be required for the players to participate, since they need information about their tactical options before they can decide what tactical options are available to them and which they will use.</p><p></p><p>Also, "maneuver 21" implies that the party has worked out at least 21 different maneuvers, something like the X-Men, I imagine. This makes for a rather different style of play than I would be used to. I would be curious as to how many players have been in groups that have worked out, separately, at least 21 different tactical maneuvers for their party in order to deal with possible encounters. I have been in groups that work out 1 maneuver, that is SOP for combats, but that is about it. Everything else is adapted on the fly. But perhaps I do not represent the average player.</p><p></p><p>I do agree that you and the players should agree as to what conventions the game will involve (which might include, as per your OP, an evil party that doesn't act evil towards each other, which to me seems to be an alignment house rule or perhaps a contrived situation, but that is a topic for another thread). I suggest you and the players should also be on the same page as to what houserules are involved. They can't plan out maneuvers if they don't know what a maneuver would do.</p><p></p><p>But one thing comes to mind. If stoneskin is houseruled as being a "Dragon Stopper", and the party has access to that spell, then the dragon is no longer a CR 18 encounter for that party and they should probably get less experience points for defeating the dragon.</p><p></p><p>And that leads to a dilemma for you, perhaps: If the party knows about your houserules, they can min/max towards those houserules, and your challenges will not be perceived as being challenging (your illusion of danger will falter - you could have a mage stock up on stoneskin scrolls and go dragon hunting, for example). On the other hand, if your party does not know your houserules, then they don't know what tactical options to use, and will get either frustrated when their efforts fail or sidelined when their efforts succeed by some means unknown to them (the sneezing on the dragon example given above).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Particle_Man, post: 3631901, member: 892"] One thing I would need to be clear on: Does the mage's character know what you houserule stoneskin as doing? So does the mage's character know that this particular trick will almost certainly work, because of how you houserule stoneskin, and how overconfident you run dragons? Or would it be more like, whatever the mage did (magic missle, sleep, etc.), you could houserule it on the fly to make the dragon suffer? Because if it is the latter, it seems like it doesn't really matter what the players do - it looks more like the DM telling a story, with the players occasionally nodding. The former situation would be required for the players to participate, since they need information about their tactical options before they can decide what tactical options are available to them and which they will use. Also, "maneuver 21" implies that the party has worked out at least 21 different maneuvers, something like the X-Men, I imagine. This makes for a rather different style of play than I would be used to. I would be curious as to how many players have been in groups that have worked out, separately, at least 21 different tactical maneuvers for their party in order to deal with possible encounters. I have been in groups that work out 1 maneuver, that is SOP for combats, but that is about it. Everything else is adapted on the fly. But perhaps I do not represent the average player. I do agree that you and the players should agree as to what conventions the game will involve (which might include, as per your OP, an evil party that doesn't act evil towards each other, which to me seems to be an alignment house rule or perhaps a contrived situation, but that is a topic for another thread). I suggest you and the players should also be on the same page as to what houserules are involved. They can't plan out maneuvers if they don't know what a maneuver would do. But one thing comes to mind. If stoneskin is houseruled as being a "Dragon Stopper", and the party has access to that spell, then the dragon is no longer a CR 18 encounter for that party and they should probably get less experience points for defeating the dragon. And that leads to a dilemma for you, perhaps: If the party knows about your houserules, they can min/max towards those houserules, and your challenges will not be perceived as being challenging (your illusion of danger will falter - you could have a mage stock up on stoneskin scrolls and go dragon hunting, for example). On the other hand, if your party does not know your houserules, then they don't know what tactical options to use, and will get either frustrated when their efforts fail or sidelined when their efforts succeed by some means unknown to them (the sneezing on the dragon example given above). [/QUOTE]
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