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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Edena_of_Neith" data-source="post: 3642250" data-attributes="member: 2020">Yeah, I'm back.  Edena_of_Neith here.  The person who started this thread.  In my opinion ...  D&D should never be a DM versus Player adversarial situation, in any kind of home setting.  D&D is about friends getting together and having fun.  I said that I thought DMs should be tough on their players, should demand more out of their players, should be more deadly towards PCs.  But I should have said more.  A DM can't be a tough DM without the approval of his players.  Why?  Because if that style of play isn't fun for them, they'll say so ... and if said style of play is forcibly continued, they'll get up and walk away from the table.  A DM *most certainly cannot* be a killer DM without the consent of his players (ala:  'let's go into the Tomb of Horrors!')  And it's for the same reason:  players not having fun are going to stop playing.  And why shouldn't they?  D&D is about fun, not misery (I hope ...)  I used a lot of hyperbole in my first post, but unless all my players gave a rousing cheer to it (assuming I read my players such a riot act at the start of the game!) I couldn't DM like that.  What actually happens is me and my players come to a mutual understanding about what kind of game is most fun.  If a challenging game is most fun, and they are in the gung-ho spirit, then I can read them that riot act to a resounding cheer.  Otherwise, not.  So, it *really* comes down to what the players want.  And that means, what my OP really is about, is about the players demanding more out of themselves.  I think the players should ask more of themselves, think more highly of themselves, give themselves more credit than they do.  After all, folks, in one of the books that started it all, a certain 5th level (or roundabouts) halfling rogue snuck down a passageway, came upon this ancient red wyrm, stole from him, had a conversation with him, figured out how to kill him, his party expected such things out of him, and he agreed in writing to do all of these things before the adventure started, and ...  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

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