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[DMs] Dealing with player's who have "ineffective" builds...
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<blockquote data-quote="Orcus" data-source="post: 2981162" data-attributes="member: 1254"><p>I'll chime in as a designer.</p><p></p><p>You have actually hit on a huge topic for adventure designers. We have no idea what your home campaign consists of. We cannot tailor adventures for you. Instead, we make certain presumptions.</p><p></p><p>Generally, If the average character level is 6, I presume access to 3rd level spells. That is a HUGE design bump. And most people look at spell access only as it relates to damage, with fireball being the obvious one. </p><p></p><p>But actually, the biggest impact I have found on adventure design are obstacle avoidance, movement and information spells that have a big impact and change the way a party that has these spells deals with an encounter versus a party that doesnt. </p><p></p><p>In my opinion, there are a few milestones:</p><p></p><p>Invisibility (2nd level) changes things but not super huge. </p><p></p><p>Fly totally changes encounters. That is a 3rd level spell. Invisibility sphere also changes the way PCs handle encounters because it lets them have a massive round of surprise generally. Of course, dispel magic is impactful. But Fly is far and away the biggest changer.</p><p></p><p>Stoneskin adds a whole new layer of defense. D-door really keeps wizards out of trouble. These are 4th level. The wall spells change things. But all in all there is no 4th level spell as huge of an impact as fly. arcane eye and charm monster can be big. </p><p></p><p>5th level, ok normally i know that damage spells dont make the difference but cloudkill does. but the real biggie is teleport. passwall and the transmute spells give the pcs huge ability to alter their surroundings--something that normally a dm can use to channel choices. not anymore!</p><p></p><p>6th gives you legend lore and true seeing. disintegrate. huge. </p><p></p><p>7th, once again, greater teleport is a total game design changer. mass invis. </p><p></p><p>8th level has a really big change: maze. no save. SR, sure if they have it. this changes the boss monsters you can use. the big strong baddie is no longer a real viable final foe since the wizard can maze him, no save. </p><p></p><p>And that is just the arcane spells. Think about divine spells.</p><p></p><p>to me hold person and silence are the first impact spell at 2nd level that affect design. </p><p></p><p>3rd brings create food and water, meaning dungeon delving is basically hunger proof. locate object has huge design implications. and speak with dead is a truly adventure-changing spell. you absolutely need to plan how corpses will respond and what info they have. this spell is huge! all of a sudden your pcs are solving murders. </p><p></p><p>4th gives dimensional anchor, which impacts certain monsters and abilities. dismissal is big. but divination is probably the game changer. but there are a couple big ones, though not as big as the last few: neutralize poison, planar ally, restoration, death ward. these really change things.</p><p></p><p>5th has commune. again, the info gathering spells have massive impact on adventure design. plane shift is huge. true seeing, massive. and slay living is big.</p><p></p><p>6th has blade barrier. i know, normally i dont list offensive spells but this one is a doozie. create undead. is you adventure ready for the necromancer or the conjurer? but maybe the biggest for 6th level is find the path. this one can kill adventure design. for a good way of handling it, see Thirteen Cages, one of the SCAP adventures. </p><p></p><p>I havent listed them all. And sorry if I left our your favorite. This isnt a list of favorites, it is a list of spells that can impact adventure design.</p><p></p><p>Is it right to presume that 6th level PCs have access to fly and thus can get around an obstacle that needs fly? Like, say, the pcs need to get to an inaccessible ledge on a mountain or something. if your 6th level PCs are all ftr2/bard2/monk2 or wiz3/rog3s then you are screwed. </p><p></p><p>So ABSOLUTELY YES you have to tailor things to your PCs. It is the one job that the adventure designers cant do for you. We have to presume access to certain abilities. But only you know what your PCs can and cant do.</p><p></p><p>Clark</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Orcus, post: 2981162, member: 1254"] I'll chime in as a designer. You have actually hit on a huge topic for adventure designers. We have no idea what your home campaign consists of. We cannot tailor adventures for you. Instead, we make certain presumptions. Generally, If the average character level is 6, I presume access to 3rd level spells. That is a HUGE design bump. And most people look at spell access only as it relates to damage, with fireball being the obvious one. But actually, the biggest impact I have found on adventure design are obstacle avoidance, movement and information spells that have a big impact and change the way a party that has these spells deals with an encounter versus a party that doesnt. In my opinion, there are a few milestones: Invisibility (2nd level) changes things but not super huge. Fly totally changes encounters. That is a 3rd level spell. Invisibility sphere also changes the way PCs handle encounters because it lets them have a massive round of surprise generally. Of course, dispel magic is impactful. But Fly is far and away the biggest changer. Stoneskin adds a whole new layer of defense. D-door really keeps wizards out of trouble. These are 4th level. The wall spells change things. But all in all there is no 4th level spell as huge of an impact as fly. arcane eye and charm monster can be big. 5th level, ok normally i know that damage spells dont make the difference but cloudkill does. but the real biggie is teleport. passwall and the transmute spells give the pcs huge ability to alter their surroundings--something that normally a dm can use to channel choices. not anymore! 6th gives you legend lore and true seeing. disintegrate. huge. 7th, once again, greater teleport is a total game design changer. mass invis. 8th level has a really big change: maze. no save. SR, sure if they have it. this changes the boss monsters you can use. the big strong baddie is no longer a real viable final foe since the wizard can maze him, no save. And that is just the arcane spells. Think about divine spells. to me hold person and silence are the first impact spell at 2nd level that affect design. 3rd brings create food and water, meaning dungeon delving is basically hunger proof. locate object has huge design implications. and speak with dead is a truly adventure-changing spell. you absolutely need to plan how corpses will respond and what info they have. this spell is huge! all of a sudden your pcs are solving murders. 4th gives dimensional anchor, which impacts certain monsters and abilities. dismissal is big. but divination is probably the game changer. but there are a couple big ones, though not as big as the last few: neutralize poison, planar ally, restoration, death ward. these really change things. 5th has commune. again, the info gathering spells have massive impact on adventure design. plane shift is huge. true seeing, massive. and slay living is big. 6th has blade barrier. i know, normally i dont list offensive spells but this one is a doozie. create undead. is you adventure ready for the necromancer or the conjurer? but maybe the biggest for 6th level is find the path. this one can kill adventure design. for a good way of handling it, see Thirteen Cages, one of the SCAP adventures. I havent listed them all. And sorry if I left our your favorite. This isnt a list of favorites, it is a list of spells that can impact adventure design. Is it right to presume that 6th level PCs have access to fly and thus can get around an obstacle that needs fly? Like, say, the pcs need to get to an inaccessible ledge on a mountain or something. if your 6th level PCs are all ftr2/bard2/monk2 or wiz3/rog3s then you are screwed. So ABSOLUTELY YES you have to tailor things to your PCs. It is the one job that the adventure designers cant do for you. We have to presume access to certain abilities. But only you know what your PCs can and cant do. Clark [/QUOTE]
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