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Message: <blockquote data-quote="HeapThaumaturgist" data-source="post: 2604662" data-attributes="member: 12332">Here's my take on it:I see a few mistakes on your end of things, which put the PCs in a bad way.1)  You created a defensive structure with an "out", but the "out" was obvious only to you.  While the whole "we can't kill it by attacking it!" thing is cool in video games, where there are OBVIOUSLY only so many choices, in a game like D&D, nobody is really going to consider that squishing the unassailable construct of doom is the way to go.  They could very well corner themselves trying to maneuver it into a doorway and watch it bust the steam door all to pieces and continue on to smooshing them to pulp.  So catching it in the door is counter-intuitive.  In a video game, the fact that the only other background element that's both animated and interactive tends to clue people in that they can use it to smoosh the construct. So they're forced downstairs.Now 2) ... the encounters downstairs were "scripted" to be tough-but-doable ... when scripted.  But then you decided to run them "un-scripted" with logical behaviors, meaning that the PCs no longer have any chance of success against them.  Both of those were your choice.  You could have "scripted" those encounters to be "quite easy" if the PCs were smart enough to get through the complex without alerting anyone, and able to take them one at a time.  Instead you made each a "good fight" and now, together, they're too much.  In Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, there were situations in which sections of the Crater Ridge Mines might become aware of the characters, but the characters were ALSO offered a way to go the other way around and gather more levels and power before they swung back to deal with the now-overwhelming foe ... but these PCs are stuck between a giant hunting party of your making and an unkillable construct ... of your making.  They can't go get more XP by cleaning up constructs upstairs, and they can't reset the shadowmen.So you've so-far created two situations where YOU have placed enemies in their way that they have no hope of defeating.  I see that as bad adventure design.  No offense, but I'm calling it as I see it.  While it may seem cool and realistic to put into play a group the PCs can't destroy, unless you gave them an out (and once YOU think is too obvious) you've really done nothing more than screw them.3)  You forgot to use the abilities of one of the foes in the encounter that the PCs' met them in.  Now the only experiences the players have with that enemy does not account for everything they can do.  So while YOU know the situation is impossible, they DON'T and have no logical reason to re-evaluate themselves.  Now ... 4)  you've "created" an out, one which revolves not around clever problem solving but around RPing.  Then you chose the character with the strong moral sense and offered him a "come with me and be my love" situation with the evil queen.  I.E. you've offered him something that has to obviously smell of:  "I get to take the moral high ground, sweet" and, effectively, ANOTHER unwinnable situation for the PCs.  The character has to do something against his nature, I.E. "lose" in order to make use of the out.In my time GMing I've learned that you have to offer multiple methods for doing things, because what YOU think is obvious or at least doable may seem like nothing of the sort to the people on the other side of the screen.  If there's one way to do something, invariably the PCs will choose to ignore that option entirely and the game either stops or slows down to a crawl as they flounder around doing everything BUT what you expected.  Also, you can't put in situations where non-standard thinking is the "only" way to handle something.  If you do, there needs to be a "Duh!" card somewhere in the building.  A stupid note left by an engineer in a desk that says: "The door mechanisms are too strong, one of the iron golems got stuck in the south passage and was destroyed by the door when it closed.  We should lower the pressure with bleed valves." or something of the sort.  Stuff that, to you, as the designer, seems like it's too stupid-obvious to be worth your time.  Sometimes it will be.  Sometimes it'll be the only way the party will survive.So I would suggest lowering the threat level of the major encounter to something the players can handle.  Probably you should remove any abilities you forgot in the initial encounter, and re-tool CR based on that.  You should have the evil queen approach one of the PCs that's of a less-moral fiber and, maybe, offer to let them go if they'll turn over the Hot Elf Pr0n PC to her, or kill her, or at least get the little minx away from her boyfriend so he'll take her back.  Something a little more doable than asking the paladin-wannabe to run off to unseelie-fairy-land to shack up with Queen Maab.  You can also stick a note about the danger the doors pose to the constructs somewhere downstairs, letting the players possibly choose to run back upstairs and crush a construct to get to safety, regroup, and decide what to do about the whole thing.--fje</blockquote>

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