DM's: How much do you help out your players in offgame?

[Jon_Dahl]

So how much do you advice your players and give them hints off-game? Meaning that you're not talking through any NPC, just giving straight advice as a DM or hint to the player, thus influencing what is going on in-game.

I must say that I strongly and vehemently oppose this kind of behaviour. I don't like to play my own game, it's for players. For instance, I've played D&D 3.5 with one group for a year now. For about 16 sessions. From the beginning one of the players has played a wizard and is still playing.

To this day, he is completely and utterly confused with his spells. This week he said that there is no spell to detect magic. I've given this player link to SRD before session #1 and I always ask if anyone has any questions before every session. It seems to me that he really doesn't care anything related to game-mechanics. I really don't know what to do with him. It seems that I either have waste game time to check and explain every single spell he does or just let him have the responsibility. Lately he has been almost killed a few times because he doesn't use any protective spells... at all! At first he did but then he just stopped. And now enemies frequently target AC11 wizard. In the last session a really fat cat familiar almost killed him by scratching and biting his toes and ankles. All of his spells were ruined by AoO's and he didn't know what to do. Even after playing a-l-l these session and months, and having a mid-level wizard. Confusing...

 

[Merkuri]

I don't have much DMing experience, but I wouldn't be opposed to helping a player learn the game and by giving them tips if they requested them. ONLY if they were requested, of course - giving unsolicited playing advice to a player is like playing their PC for them, which is no fun.

However, in your case it sounds like this player has chosen the wrong character. You might want to have a talk with him and tell him it sounds like he's having trouble keeping up with his character's abilities. Offer to let him switch characters if he wants. He might do better with a character that doesn't require as much bookkeeping, like a fighter or rogue.

 

[Blackbrrd]

I do the exact opposite of what you do. I give advice by the barrel-full!

I can't see the player having any fun not being able to do anything because he hasn't understood the fundamentals of the game. It's like playing soccer with a guy that keeps picking up the ball with his hands and not telling him when he can't do it.

 

[anest1s]

"You feel, that if you try to cast the spell that close to him, you will be an easy target...and you remember that last time you left an opening it DID hurt. Are you sure you don't want to take a 5ft step before you cast your spell?"


Thats what I would try to do...since his character in game would know that it hurts; if not from the beginning, for sure after many failures. Most rules are made to make sense in real life. So if you want, you can present them as something the character suddenly realizes (As you try to throw your dagger, you realize that its construction wont allow it to go too far). You can ask him to roll for intelligence, or wisdom check if you feel that you don't want to give it away too easily.

Still, he can say "No, I like to feel the pain" or something like that....but thats his decision.

 

[Jon_Dahl]

"You feel, that if you try to cast the spell that close to him, you will be an easy target...and you remember that last time you left an opening it DID hurt. Are you sure you don't want to take a 5ft step before you cast your spell?"

I understand your view, but I feel that is too much baby-sitting which makes the game slower and players get lazy... I know a DM that does things like this. I know that I can do all kind of stupid and random things with an intelligent character because my DM always tells me what is a bad idea and what is not. And if I don't do anything, then my DM will give me an obvious hint what to do. So I have no fear of making a bad choice or hurting my character and it does make me lazy and bored. I remember when my character DID get hurt in his games, I felt glad because finally there is some challenge.

I don't want my players to feel like that.

 

[IronWolf]

I would certainly be tempted to provide advice to the player in question. Maybe he's feeling overwhelmed and a little bit of additional instruction would help him. If he is having trouble with game mechanics I would certainly touch on the topic with him to see whether he has little interest in mechanics, is confused or overwhelmed. This seems like an issue where communication is needed to figure out what is happening instead of allowing frustrations to build.

 

[anest1s]

I understand your view, but I feel that is too much baby-sitting which makes the game slower and players get lazy... I know a DM that does things like this. I know that I can do all kind of stupid and random things with an intelligent character because my DM always tells me what is a bad idea and what is not. And if I don't do anything, then my DM will give me an obvious hint what to do. So I have no fear of making a bad choice or hurting my character and it does make me lazy and bored. I remember when my character DID get hurt in his games, I felt glad because finally there is some challenge.

I don't want my players to feel like that.

Well, what you say is right...but how would you feel if everything you tried didn't work? Imagine yourself playing in a game, where the DM hasn't informed anyone about house-rules, yet he has a hell lot of them -resulting that almost everything you do thinking that it should work, doesn't.

I think it is the same for someone who doesn't know the rules.
After all, a player who knows the rules wont get hurt by AoOs every time he casts spells. Since the difficulty of defeating a monster depends on how it is played, it makes sense that how easily it is defeated depends on how well the players can play. And playing without knowing the rules is very bad winning strategy.

If you want the players to get challenged, play your monsters harder or use harder monsters...this will get the PCs hurt. Playing your monsters harder, will also improve the tactics you and the players use, and good tactics is something many players enjoy (good tactics vs expert tactics is more amazing than tactics vs no tactics, and they hurt the same).

However, it looks like the problem is that the played indeed doesn't know the rules. You can force him to study them at home, but this probably isn't working. You can also ask him to study them. Or you can teach them to him via suggestions.

 

[Jon_Dahl]

Just to clarify a bit: I do explain him everytime that casting spell does provoke "free hit" because he lets his guard down. I just don't explain it any further than that, I expect him to try to find a solution for this. What if I move away from the attacker? What if I carefully retreat? Can I cast in a way that does not provoke "free hits"?

I really don't feed him to the dogs, I do explain that casting a spell next to an enemy works poorly and we have gone that path numerous and numerous times. I just expect him to try to have a solution to the problem, which can be found by asking questions and/or reading rules (which are available to him).

I guess I like puzzles and tactics a lot. I find it as a big failure if I have to find a right strategy for my players.

Edit: But I do admit that I'm kind of a hard DM, but not TOO hard IMO. And if I would play in my own games, I would get pissed off sometimes

 

[IronWolf]

Just to clarify a bit: I do explain him everytime that casting spell does provoke "free hit" because he lets his guard down. I just don't explain it any further than that, I expect him to try to find a solution for this. What if I move away from the attacker? What if I carefully retreat? Can I cast in a way that does not provoke "free hits"?

I guess I like puzzles and tactics a lot. I find it as a big failure if I have to find a right strategy for my players.

If the player is confused he might not realize he has options or be too intimidated at this point to ask questions at risk of feeling "stupid" being 16 sessions in and not having a grasp on the rules. Some players need a little more friendly coaching in the beginning before it clicks for them.

Throw the player a bone and offer him some choices. For example, "If you cast from there you will provoke a free hit, but if you wanted to you could try to carefully retreat and cast safely next round, take a step back or etc, etc."

 

[Jon_Dahl]

I'm going to be honest with you Ironwolf and tell you that I consider giving options the absolute abomination of roleplaying and it reminds me of computer games. The way I was "brought" up to roleplaying, the #1 rule is that the entire game is lost if you are giving options like 1, 2 and 3. If our game would "degenerate" (just IMO because of my strong brainwashing by my mentor-DM!) to that level, it would be better to change DM.

I know that I'm not right. But I also do know that I should study harder in life, exercise more, eat vegetables every day and donate blood, but I don't. There is just some things that are beyond our character and world-view. And giving options like in a PC-games is too much for me to stomach.