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DM's: How transparent are you with game mechanics "in world?"
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<blockquote data-quote="Lyxen" data-source="post: 8394986" data-attributes="member: 7032025"><p>I'm fine with that, and honestly we have drifted far from the discussions here, just showing how different our games are. You game by the rules and give the players every opportunity to explore them and the way they interact during the games, for me the rules are just a tool that we might be using (or not) to support the story.</p><p></p><p>At this point, with the importance of the rules for you, it's clear that not abiding by the ones that you fixed at the start is a form of cheating, and not following them are mistakes. For us, telling the story through the rules is not what we are interested in, and the mistakes are to think that the rules should define what happens at the table, and therefore there can be no cheating, as rules are flexible.</p><p></p><p>Just be aware that saying that we are making mistakes by not following the rules to the letter, or that we are inaccurate in our way of gaming, or that we are cheating when changing the rules on the fly is actually fairly offensive, so you might want to reconsider the words that you are using when describing someone else's way of gaming. None of the previous terms have any justification even in the rules themselves, only in the view that you have about how the game should be played.</p><p></p><p>On top of this, we also have differences about the role of the DM, you think he is mostly a referee, where I think that we don't really need a referee because the rules are not important, so he is more the game's lead storyteller. Once more, both are fine, it's just that it leads us to completely different answers to this thread's question.</p><p></p><p>And you can think what you want, but so can I, I do believe that doing any kind of work is more worthy of respect than not doing any. General principle of life, cultural if you want. After that, this does not mean that every person is not entitled to some measure of respect, especially friends players at your table, but assuming that it is the case, and all over things being equal at a table (which, actually, there are not, for example in every sport there is a special respect allocated to the referee, especially in your interpretation of the DM's role), it still makes the DM more worthy of respect than his players.</p><p></p><p>Onto more specific points:</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">It's all well and good to bring up things like mage slayer, but you should not forget that it works within 5 feet of you, not across the battlefield anyway: "As noted in the Player’s Handbook, you normally don’t know that a spell has been cast unless the spell produces a noticeable effect." Edit: ALso feats are optional, and bringing a single one of them as a "proof" that the whole system should work a specific way seems a very weak argument.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">As for Xanathar, you are reversing the sentence "To be perceptible, the casting of a spell must involve a verbal, somatic, or material component." It does not mean that it HAS to be perceivable in any circumstances from across the battlefield, it just says that if it does not involve these elements, it is not perceivable. And in the original example, the act of spellcasting was clearly visible, the "ranger" muttered before attacking (again, the Verbal component does not require you to be specifically loud or particularly distinct as "The words themselves aren't the source of the spell's power"), which considering the distance is a perfect interpretation of something that is perceivable and was actually perceived. But because the spell did not create any perceivable effect,</li> </ul><p>So, once more, please don't try to force a strict interpretation of the rules on us, it might work in a few cases, but it's also one of the reasons for me liking 5e, even RAW, the rules have been written to have myriads of interpretations depending on your sensibilities.</p><p></p><p>So, back to this thread, if a DM wants to preserve the mystery of spellcasting, and go on with the story without being hounded to death by players trying to force rules interpretations to pry secrets out of him, it's absolutely his right, he is 100% supported by the game as well, and suggesting that he is not doing his job well is actually offensive (and from my perspective, keeping the secrets and encouraging players to roleplay in character is actually a worthy goal of the way we are playing the game).</p><p></p><p>In conclusion, please stop telling anyone that they are making mistakes when playing because they do not play the way you do. Once more, I leave you with this sentence from the devs: "To play D&D, <strong><u>and to play it well</u></strong>, <strong><u>you don’t need to read all the rules</u></strong>, memorize every detail of the game, or master the fine art of rolling funny looking dice. <strong><u>None of those things have any bearing on what’s best about the game</u></strong>."</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Lyxen, post: 8394986, member: 7032025"] I'm fine with that, and honestly we have drifted far from the discussions here, just showing how different our games are. You game by the rules and give the players every opportunity to explore them and the way they interact during the games, for me the rules are just a tool that we might be using (or not) to support the story. At this point, with the importance of the rules for you, it's clear that not abiding by the ones that you fixed at the start is a form of cheating, and not following them are mistakes. For us, telling the story through the rules is not what we are interested in, and the mistakes are to think that the rules should define what happens at the table, and therefore there can be no cheating, as rules are flexible. Just be aware that saying that we are making mistakes by not following the rules to the letter, or that we are inaccurate in our way of gaming, or that we are cheating when changing the rules on the fly is actually fairly offensive, so you might want to reconsider the words that you are using when describing someone else's way of gaming. None of the previous terms have any justification even in the rules themselves, only in the view that you have about how the game should be played. On top of this, we also have differences about the role of the DM, you think he is mostly a referee, where I think that we don't really need a referee because the rules are not important, so he is more the game's lead storyteller. Once more, both are fine, it's just that it leads us to completely different answers to this thread's question. And you can think what you want, but so can I, I do believe that doing any kind of work is more worthy of respect than not doing any. General principle of life, cultural if you want. After that, this does not mean that every person is not entitled to some measure of respect, especially friends players at your table, but assuming that it is the case, and all over things being equal at a table (which, actually, there are not, for example in every sport there is a special respect allocated to the referee, especially in your interpretation of the DM's role), it still makes the DM more worthy of respect than his players. Onto more specific points: [LIST] [*]It's all well and good to bring up things like mage slayer, but you should not forget that it works within 5 feet of you, not across the battlefield anyway: "As noted in the Player’s Handbook, you normally don’t know that a spell has been cast unless the spell produces a noticeable effect." Edit: ALso feats are optional, and bringing a single one of them as a "proof" that the whole system should work a specific way seems a very weak argument. [*]As for Xanathar, you are reversing the sentence "To be perceptible, the casting of a spell must involve a verbal, somatic, or material component." It does not mean that it HAS to be perceivable in any circumstances from across the battlefield, it just says that if it does not involve these elements, it is not perceivable. And in the original example, the act of spellcasting was clearly visible, the "ranger" muttered before attacking (again, the Verbal component does not require you to be specifically loud or particularly distinct as "The words themselves aren't the source of the spell's power"), which considering the distance is a perfect interpretation of something that is perceivable and was actually perceived. But because the spell did not create any perceivable effect, [/LIST] So, once more, please don't try to force a strict interpretation of the rules on us, it might work in a few cases, but it's also one of the reasons for me liking 5e, even RAW, the rules have been written to have myriads of interpretations depending on your sensibilities. So, back to this thread, if a DM wants to preserve the mystery of spellcasting, and go on with the story without being hounded to death by players trying to force rules interpretations to pry secrets out of him, it's absolutely his right, he is 100% supported by the game as well, and suggesting that he is not doing his job well is actually offensive (and from my perspective, keeping the secrets and encouraging players to roleplay in character is actually a worthy goal of the way we are playing the game). In conclusion, please stop telling anyone that they are making mistakes when playing because they do not play the way you do. Once more, I leave you with this sentence from the devs: "To play D&D, [B][U]and to play it well[/U][/B], [B][U]you don’t need to read all the rules[/U][/B], memorize every detail of the game, or master the fine art of rolling funny looking dice. [B][U]None of those things have any bearing on what’s best about the game[/U][/B]." [/QUOTE]
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