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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8395393" data-attributes="member: 6801228">Apologies for the length. I try to make my points as complete as possible to avoid misunderstandings.I find it strange that you keep thinking I'm trying to enforce a view of strict interpretations of the rules on you and others. Or that they are making a mistake by not playing the way I do. I have never said those things. Here are some of the things I have said.1) By the rules, the player is not incorrect in assuming that they will know when a spell is cast. The rules do not say that all spells are imperceptible unless they have an effect, they clearly indicate that the casting of a spell is noticeable. The DM may wish to change this, but the OP has not given any indication that that was their intention. You are projecting your own values upon them. My point was never that the DM was obviously in the wrong, but that the Player was also not obviously in the wrong. There is room to give both parties the benefit of the doubt.I also find your use of language to constantly be combative and confrontational. For example, the player asking questions to make sure they understand the scene is the DM "being hounded to death" and the players "trying to force rules interpretations to pry secrets out of him". Despite you seeming to believe the best of your own players as collaborators, you seem to imagine everyone who isn't sitting at your table to be constantly attacking their DMs and seeking an advantage over them. I have never once seen you engage with the idea of a player asking or considering any technical information in a way that wasn't the player being borderline abusive and ignoring "the spirit of the game"2) I have never said that a DM playing loose with the rules is a mistake. What I did say is that DMs can make mistakes, when they intend to follow a rule, but accidentally do not. Again, you are projecting your own values here by saying that such a thing is not a mistake, when the DM themselves might feel that it was. If the DM in the OP is that type, who when not following the rules in the way they wanted to follow them considers that a mistake, then questions from the players about specific oddities would not be the players attacking the DM, hounding the DM, or distrusting the DM, but trying to be helpful.Now, we can assume that the DM doesn't feel that way, because they asked for advice. But we can consider that such DMs do exist, and that as such, players for those DMs would view asking questions like this in a different light. I'm not saying that everyone must follow the same format, but perhaps we consider if this player learned the game in that sort of environment, where helping the DM not forget the rules was considered a good thing, and therefore not something the player should be ashamed of or castigated for.3) On cheating. My original statement was quite broad and vague, on purpose. I simply stated it was possible for the DM to cheat. For example, since this conversation started I have been told absolutely that a DM using weighted dice to roll is not cheating. Would you agree with that statement? Would say that no cheating is going on if the DM is using weighted dice?The point of my original statement was one of fairness. If we are going to assume the worst of players, then we should assume the worst of DMs as well. If we don't want to assume the worst of DMs, then what is the purpose of assuming the worst of players? There didn't need to be a discussion of cheating at all, but you felt the need to bring it up in regards to players. And there has been a lot of assumptions about the player in the OP, many accusation thrown their way for doing nothing more than asking questions. And you yourself were quite harsh on this player, which reads to me like trying to force your values upon others. I'm not saying your values are lesser than others, but that if you go forward assuming that your values are applying to every scenario, then you are going to continue getting push back.4) An example of this. You have quoted that designer blurb dozens of times. Seemingly with the idea that no one else has ever read it. But, have you considered that we did read it, and saw something in it you didn't?"To play D&D, and to play it well, you don’t need to read all the rules" You bolded the entire part, but did you ever wonder about their point of "all the rules"? You seem to interpret it that to play the game well you don't need to have read or understood any of the rules, but I think the designers weren't going that far. You likely do need to read the rules for your class. If you are casting spells, you likely need to be familiar with the spellcasting rules. If you are playing a rogue, you don't need to know the rules for Wild Shape, but you probably should know the rules for bonus actions and sneak attack. You can play without knowing those rules, I suppose, but is that actually what you do? Do none of your players follow any of the rules? Or do they just follow the rules that apply to them? Did they memorize the rules for crafting items, or did they decide that they didn't need to know those rules? The designers weren't rejecting all rules, they were simply saying that mastering every single rule is unnecessary."None of those things have any bearing on what’s best about the game." What is best about the game? Having fun with friends, obviously. So, the rules have no bearing on having fun with your friends. However, it doesn't say that the rules have no bearing on the game. And actually, what they are really saying is this "Reading and memorizing all the rules and mastering the art of rolling dice doesn't have any bearing on having fun." Which, again, does not mean that you shouldn't read the rules or that the dice don't matter. You have taken a very bland statement, and made an extreme point that you try and bludgeon us with at every opportunity, to enforce that your values and your way of playing is actually intended by the designers of the game. It is warping their intent to make a false appeal to authority.Again, I'm not saying that the inverse of your position is true. That we all must memorize the rules, and slavishly obey them, simply that you continually take an extreme position and then defend that position by calling upon the designers and aggressively quoting them.Another example of this, you seem to think that the DM as referee of the rules and the DM as "lead storyteller" are opposed. I'd say they are not. In fact, I would say being a referee of the rules isn't even solely the DM's responsibility. I find it much better when the table decides an odd situation together. Perhaps the DMs vote holds more weight, but I feel like collaborating with your players leads to a better game with more investment. But, for this to happen, the players have to be able to engage with the technical side of the game. Which does not prevent them from roleplaying. I, as the DM, engage in the mechanical and technical side of the game constantly, yet I also roleplay far more characters than the players ever do. I don't think I'm particularly special, so I don't see how a player is incapable of both giving and receiving technical information and roleplaying. The two don't cancel each other out.</blockquote>

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