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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hawken" data-source="post: 2610112" data-attributes="member: 23619">I don't have anything against rogue's dealing damage, but that's not 'what they do'. They steal, they sneak, they disarm, etc., but in no way should they be able to out-fight a fighter. Dealing 'hordes of damage' is something that should come to mind when thinking of fighters, barbarians, etc. They don't always hit less often than fighters either, despite their slower progression. I've already explained that. How exactly are they 'screwed' at high levels most of the time? It sounds like you think rogues should be combat machines more than fighters. That's not the way it should be and I doubt the game designers intended it that way either. What is it with several of you making it sound like the rogue has a worse BAB than a wizard?! They have a decent BAB and with a typically high Dex and Weapon Finesse, their BAB is on par with any fighter. "Slimmer and slimmer" is a slight exaggeration as well. Decreasing BAB by -2 is hardly "slimmer and slimmer". And if you "allow" them to make up for missed hits, how do you "allow" fighters, clerics and anyone else to "make up" for missed hits? Rogues don't get SA to "make up" for a BAB lower than a fighters. Their BAB is lower than a Fighters because they were not intended to be as "good" as a fighter in combat. And plenty of Rogues could take PA, especially ones with a high strength (or high dex) so their BAB isn't too adversely affected. Or maybe they take it to get other feats like Imp. Sunder, Cleave, Great Cleave.  Combat Expertise is a feat, and just because its requirement depends on Int has nothing to do with SA. Knowing where to place your hits is only part of the equation, which rogues are automatically assumed to know since there is not some skill like Knowledge (Anatomy) that they have to take ranks in to prove this. Because SA damage is bonus damage for being able to inflict a precise enough wound in a vital spot, I am simply positing that any voluntary penalty to BAB reflects them not being precise enough in their strike that they do not get SA damage when they do so. They are still more than capable of taking fighter feats and modeling themselves after a fighter, but in doing so, they definitely should NOT get SA while they are 'playing' at being a fighter, but instead get it when they are being the backstabbing rogue that they are supposed to be. How does taking what feats limit their hit percentage? And if so, it wouldn't limit it more than anyone else taking the same feats. Why wouldn't rogues hit mobs? Even at mid-high level mobs are typically several creatures with low AC or within a range that the rogue has a better than average chance of hitting, especially when flanking or the target doesn't get a Dex bonus. Also, how many mobs are there that have "all sorts of resistances" to SA damage? I'm not aware of too many--especially in relation to the mobs that don't have those resistances.Not exactly. I think its a good rule. But no one so far has presented any compelling reasons against it. Much of these reasons against it seem to be premised on the idea that rogues should be able to do SA while being as good or better at combat than fighter classes and that there should be fewer guidelines on SA than there currently are.</blockquote>

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