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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Aust Diamondew" data-source="post: 2622433" data-attributes="member: 5156">To quote the SRD: "The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach."I would just like to point out Hawken that you are wrong about there being no DM descreation involved in SA.  DMs descretion is involved, for who else would get to decide if a creatures vitals are beyond reach?You seem so set on not letting rogues get sneak attack when any feat would penalize their attacks I see little point to arguing with you (however I will do so  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f615.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":confused:" title="Confused    :confused:"  data-smilie="5"data-shortname=":confused:" /> ).The premise of your thread was that rogues frequently deal too much damage and need to have their sneak attacking damage ability reduced.  I simply listed many situations in which sneak attack indeed cannot be used thus reducing it's utility.You then state that everything I have listed aren't limits but are circumstances as well as stating that the limits of sneak attack itself are not limits but defining criteria.  You might be changing what these limits are called but they indeed are limits.  The defining criteria of sneak attack are designed to limit the use of the ability.  When the game was created the designers had in mind that there would be creature abilities, equipment and spells to limit the utility of sneak attack.I would venture to say that the limits you place on sneak attack by not allowing it to be used when taking a penalty to attack roll are not limits (as you seem to think they are) but are instead situational exceptions.  Therefore I believe you need to place some actual limits on sneak attack if you think it needs it's power to be reduced <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> .If you really think sneak attack is too much consider dropping back it's damage die (as others have said) to a d4.  Or instead of sneak attack giving rogues bonus feats like fighters (1 at first and at every even level) as is a suggested variant in unearthed arcana.</blockquote>

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