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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Thia Halmades" data-source="post: 2626110" data-attributes="member: 35863">Short version: nerfing Rogues doesn't directly aid them in any way; it only prohibits them from doing what they're best at.  There are new rules in a couple of the splat books, Complete Adventurer being one of them, which gives a Nerfed version of SA that is more limited than the original.  I believe the Ninja and Skirmisher both have it, but I can't remember the name of it.  I cannot condone limiting a Rogue's SA ability, but if you want too, that may be a reduction everyone can live with, and still make rogues playable.Because if you nerf SA, you're hamstringing the class, and removing their major ability to 'look cool.'  I never think that's a good idea.  Long version follows.Ferrix's point is spot on.  Hawken, you seem concerned primarily with a Rogues ability to deal damage on an SA.  This argument has gone in circles a bit, so I'm going to bring it back to its core premise and talk about that.  The Rogue's primary abilities are Skills (8/lvl) and SA (d6/2 lvls).  That's what makes them special.  They are not combat monsters (d6 HP, light armor) nor are they casters.Every character in D&D can fight, by which I mean, contribute significantly to a combat.  The rules of the game are combat oriented.  It was based on a skirmish game back in the day; now we've taken those skirmish characters and given them personalities.  But the current version of d20 is, in part, a combat game.  That means every character has to be able to significantly aid in that combat.  For whatever reason, you've decided that you don't want your Rogues to be able to do that.  You are clearly under the impression that they are combat monsters.  They aren't.I have a Ninja in one of my campaigns (the L5R version, I think, with a half-ton of super powers and fighter BAB progression) who is under the mistaken impression he can win a straight fight.  He dives, head long, into the jaws of a Pyrohydrae.  He is beaten down like a naughty mule and then can't understand why he's at 0 HP, while the Cleric burns three Cure spells on him.  What he did was bring a knife to a gun fight, waving it in the air and screaming "Hit me!" at the top of his lungs.  The rogue cannot, and will never be able to, go toe-to-toe in melee.  If you want to talk about dealing damage and balance, you need to first accept that the game is not balanced for PVP.  Comparing a 15th level fighter to a 15th level rogue is pointless.  What gear do they have?  What feats do they take?  You're comparing apples to oranges.  Their jobs, and the ability progression and equipment, are so completely different that its futile.  Sure, the Rogue lacks all of the fighters combat ability.  The fighter will now Use Magic Device.  Oh, right.  They can't.One of the roles a tank fills is to absorb damage on the line and provide a distraction for the casters to hide behind and the rogue to move around and create flanking opportunities with.  A rogue on the line won't be dealing SA without either having initiative (which is likely, if the rogue is worth their crossbow) or using feats to create SA opportunities.  If a character deals 80% of a major MOBs damage in a hit, wouldn't you redirect your forces to the biggest threat?  The fighter can deal plenty of damage, sure, but not that much.  Rogues are easier to kill and have less AC and HP on the whole compared to a fully armored, enchanted fighter.  My NPCs react to threats in order; a caster starts firing, they manuever to deal with it.  A rogue gets an SA, other NPCs become aware and counter.  Simple.Among the things you cited as wanting to Nerf, you included the idea that Power Attack would negate SA.  Why?  The Rogue has medium BAB to begin with; they are unlikely to a have a STR bonus to attack beyond a +1 or +2, so unless they have a fly magic weapon, they're only hurting themselves.  That's a player's choice to take that risk.  If there were a mechanic that multiplied SA damage, or made the SA more potent, then sure.  I'd almost understand it.  But there isn't.  SA damage stacks only with damage of its type.Giving Rogues a Good BAB is an equally bad idea.  Now they really CAN use Power Attack and deal a healthy chunk of extra damage.  They'll also get more attacks earlier.  Which is another point I wanted to bring up; you're making it sound as though a Rogue utilizing a Full Attack would only get their SA once, as you wouldn't let it apply to any feat based additional attacks (two weapon, etc.).  So when they reach 9th level, what then?  Because I would submit they do, in fact, get their SA on their iterative attack if the opponent was flat-footed or flanked, and is still flat-footed or flanked at the time of the iterative attack.LCpt. Thia Halmades</blockquote>

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