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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Rel" data-source="post: 5029329" data-attributes="member: 99">I'm of the mind that the problem with this encounter wasn't that it was too hard, just that it wasn't fun.  I'm a big believer in hard encounters because I think they bring about a sense of accomplishment on the part of the players that is far more satisfying than if things are a cake walk.  But it's a fine line between "tough battle" and "annoying grind".I was unfortunately treading that line last night.It reminded me of the situation described in this thread because it was the next to last session of the campaign.  The PC's are preparing to enter this big temple and fight the BBEG who they've been chasing for the entire second half of the campaign.  And he's in there doing a big, nasty ritual, etc., etc.  But first they have to get past the guards that the BBEG put on the door to the temple.The encounter I put together was, to be blunt about it, stupidly difficult for a party of their size and level.  The PC's are a party of 4 13th level characters.  Outside the gate I had ten (somewhat modified) Ghost Legionaires.  The gate itself was a creature (heavily modified Pit of the Abandoned Regiment) and a pair of Shadar-Kai Blacksouls.  Sounds terrible, doesn't it?However I also made a few things clear:  One of the Shadar-Kai was busy at all times channeling necrotic energy from this circle of black flames to strengthen the gate and the Ghost Legionaires.  So not only could he take no other actions, it was clear that these other bad guys would be easier to destroy if that channeling was interrupted.  The PC's had numerous ways to do that, but apart from the Warlock getting up close once early in the battle and attempting a Howl of Doom (which missed), it wasn't until nearly the end of the battle that any of the PC's knocked that Shadar-Kai out of the channeling circle.  (the effect of this would have been to render the Ghost Legionaires all minions and the gate would have 1/4th of its normal hit points)But instead of focusing their efforts on getting past the gate and attacking the Shadar-Kai, they fought toe to toe with the Ghost Legionaires.  All one thousand hit points worth of them.  This was made all the more difficult by the fact that they didn't want to spend ANY of their daily powers because they felt they would be needed vs. the BBEG at the end.  Furthermore, the PC's have a set of weapons enchanted via a ritual they got not too long ago that do a sort of "retributive strike" that damages all nearby bad guys AND let's nearby allies spend a healing surge.  They also had at least two Action Points each.  Again, they didn't want to use any of these resources because they wanted them for the final battle.I understand them being a bit conservative with those resources but that, combined with the fact that they used none of the shortcuts I had in place to make this fight easier, meant that it was incredibly long, difficult and, at times, frustrating.I think that a good GM will identify a battle that is going to be un-fun and try to remedy that situation (preferably before it ever starts being fought).  But I also think that the players are responsible to making some adjustments to their tactics and resource expenditures to overcome seemingly difficult odds.Like I said, it's a tricky line to straddle.  If this is a constant problem with this GM then yeah, I'd be looking for another group.  But sometimes they make a single bad call.  And sometimes the players don't do much to help the situation.</blockquote>

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