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Do castles make sense in a world of dragons & spells?
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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 5115425" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>Yes, but not all traditional castles structures make sense. As you indicate, the castles of a fantasy world would have to take into account additional dangers. However, technology existed in ancient castles to defend against technological attack that can be repurposed for defending against ariel attack or invisible inflitrators. That technology would be employed more universally in a fantasy setting to secure gatehouses from commando raids, and to provide defence against flying attackers. Arrow slits, shuttered windows, hoardings, and counter-seige weaponry still make excellent defences against fantastic attack - 90% 360 degree cover and prepared fighting positions are even more important (not less) when the missiles increase in power.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>But magic missile is a close range spell. Long before the wizard could get into range, a skilled archer could skewer him with bolts and arrows. This means that the wizard must approach invisibily or behind cover. But if invisible, then his presence is likely to become clear as soon as he attacks unless he's a quite high level wizard indeed. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>All of this is true. But threats of fire and plunging missiles were not unknown in the middle ages. The technology existed to counter them. All the fantasy situation changes is the relative importance of the technology.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>But again, technology existed to counter this threat. The threat of a castle being inflitrated was not unknown at the time. The means to lock down a sector of a castle so that the remainder of the castle could isolate it self from the inflitrated sector and then, from a superior position counter attack the exposed attackers existed. This is why keeps were designed with concentric defenses, why major towers were built with there own mini-gates houses and sometimes drawbridges, and why inner courtyards were covered with arrow slits by the main keep.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I think that they would look very different from some castles, but that most of their features would be entirely familiar to expert castle architects of the middle ages. The one major difference other than the ubiquitousness of permenent hoardings would be that fantasy castles would have to be designed to counter-attack aerial attackers, which means you might see shuttered arrow slits in the roof of hoardings, skyward pointing balistas, and greater emphasis on being able to quickly pivot such weapons.</p><p></p><p>I think you get it mostly right so far as you go, except you need more familiarity with actual castle defences.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>What you seem to fail to realize is that walls and towers would be roofed in the anticipation of a seige or attack anyway. Your image of a castle is based off the ruins of castles. You think of walls and towers as not having roofs because the hoardings were made of wood and generally haven't survived. The main difference is that rather than building the hoardings right before the battle as temporary structures to save on maintenance costs, they would be built as permenent and essential structures from the beginning.</p><p> </p><p>A courtyard presents some danger as a place to land attackers, but you fail to realize that one of the primary purposes of a courtyard was to provide a space in which to contain an attacker where they would be exposed and without cover from defensive fire. It doesn't really matter whether the attacker got into the courtyard by going through the wall or over it, the castle is going to be designed such that you can kill whoever got there.</p><p></p><p>I really think the main threat that 'low level' warriors have difficulty facing is invisible attackers. Successful castle defense is going to have dedicated systems for responding to invisible threats. The front line of this defense is probably going to be trained creatures with the <em>scent</em> ability, and ideally sectors of the castle that purge invisibility spells when they are entered, backed up with the castles own spellcasting defenders to respond to these threats.</p><p></p><p>My biggest complaint against D&D is that the standard spell list makes protecting an individual no harder than attacking one, but makes attacking an area much easier than defending it. I would very much like to see more permenent spells (or spells that can be made permenent) which defend areas and structures, and I believe that such spells ought to be roughly comparable in level to the spells they defend against. That is, there ought to be relatively low level spells (4th and under) that defend areas against invisibility, divination, teleportation, fire, and so forth. There are some mundane things that counter these effects (lining structures with lead, the aforementioned gorgon's blood in the mortar) but I think that 'defensive magic' is an area insufficient interest has been placed in because its seldom of use to a PC (until relatively late in their career and they start building strongholds of their own).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 5115425, member: 4937"] Yes, but not all traditional castles structures make sense. As you indicate, the castles of a fantasy world would have to take into account additional dangers. However, technology existed in ancient castles to defend against technological attack that can be repurposed for defending against ariel attack or invisible inflitrators. That technology would be employed more universally in a fantasy setting to secure gatehouses from commando raids, and to provide defence against flying attackers. Arrow slits, shuttered windows, hoardings, and counter-seige weaponry still make excellent defences against fantastic attack - 90% 360 degree cover and prepared fighting positions are even more important (not less) when the missiles increase in power. But magic missile is a close range spell. Long before the wizard could get into range, a skilled archer could skewer him with bolts and arrows. This means that the wizard must approach invisibily or behind cover. But if invisible, then his presence is likely to become clear as soon as he attacks unless he's a quite high level wizard indeed. All of this is true. But threats of fire and plunging missiles were not unknown in the middle ages. The technology existed to counter them. All the fantasy situation changes is the relative importance of the technology. But again, technology existed to counter this threat. The threat of a castle being inflitrated was not unknown at the time. The means to lock down a sector of a castle so that the remainder of the castle could isolate it self from the inflitrated sector and then, from a superior position counter attack the exposed attackers existed. This is why keeps were designed with concentric defenses, why major towers were built with there own mini-gates houses and sometimes drawbridges, and why inner courtyards were covered with arrow slits by the main keep. I think that they would look very different from some castles, but that most of their features would be entirely familiar to expert castle architects of the middle ages. The one major difference other than the ubiquitousness of permenent hoardings would be that fantasy castles would have to be designed to counter-attack aerial attackers, which means you might see shuttered arrow slits in the roof of hoardings, skyward pointing balistas, and greater emphasis on being able to quickly pivot such weapons. I think you get it mostly right so far as you go, except you need more familiarity with actual castle defences. What you seem to fail to realize is that walls and towers would be roofed in the anticipation of a seige or attack anyway. Your image of a castle is based off the ruins of castles. You think of walls and towers as not having roofs because the hoardings were made of wood and generally haven't survived. The main difference is that rather than building the hoardings right before the battle as temporary structures to save on maintenance costs, they would be built as permenent and essential structures from the beginning. A courtyard presents some danger as a place to land attackers, but you fail to realize that one of the primary purposes of a courtyard was to provide a space in which to contain an attacker where they would be exposed and without cover from defensive fire. It doesn't really matter whether the attacker got into the courtyard by going through the wall or over it, the castle is going to be designed such that you can kill whoever got there. I really think the main threat that 'low level' warriors have difficulty facing is invisible attackers. Successful castle defense is going to have dedicated systems for responding to invisible threats. The front line of this defense is probably going to be trained creatures with the [I]scent[/I] ability, and ideally sectors of the castle that purge invisibility spells when they are entered, backed up with the castles own spellcasting defenders to respond to these threats. My biggest complaint against D&D is that the standard spell list makes protecting an individual no harder than attacking one, but makes attacking an area much easier than defending it. I would very much like to see more permenent spells (or spells that can be made permenent) which defend areas and structures, and I believe that such spells ought to be roughly comparable in level to the spells they defend against. That is, there ought to be relatively low level spells (4th and under) that defend areas against invisibility, divination, teleportation, fire, and so forth. There are some mundane things that counter these effects (lining structures with lead, the aforementioned gorgon's blood in the mortar) but I think that 'defensive magic' is an area insufficient interest has been placed in because its seldom of use to a PC (until relatively late in their career and they start building strongholds of their own). [/QUOTE]
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