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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Arrowhawk" data-source="post: 5701654" data-attributes="member: 6679551">The evidence and the game rulese say otherwise.  I'm sure you've read Jack Simth's post about Detect Magic.  But your response says you're ignoring the underlying implication: If something can be done, it will be done. If casters could devise a means of categorizing and classifyting and accurately describign how magic works, Wizards would assuredly have don it eons ago.  The game says casters and all classes gain power in levels.  It's homebrew to decide that's not really how it works but just an abstraction.  This is how D&D is.  This is how it has always been.  Classes level up.  It's not reality, it's a game.  Yes, you can change the nature of the game and say that a "level" is just an invention for the player but doesn't exist for the character, but then you're running into the brick wall of spell duration and distince and cost being level dependent...to the precise level...with no variation. You're also ignoring that several classes would have levels as part of the organizational structure e.g. Clerics, Druids, Monks, etc.   That advancement within the group would be based on one's in-game level and the granting of special abilities would trigger one's ascension up the ranks.   The simplest conclusion many people would have come to ...oh, about 2000 years before anyone's campaign were to take place, is the concept of levels exactly describes an occurance in nature...and that nature would infact drive the use of the concept of "levels" to describe reality. A perfect example is again, quantam mechanics.  Scientists have learned that electrons occupy "quanta."  So in order to understand and describe what happens with electrons, they had to come up with a concept prefectly represents it... The same exact thing would happen with spell casters.  Wizards would seek the simplest and most accurate way to describe how their discipline workds and "levels' would describe it perfectly.  Why a DM would feel the need to construct some elaborate reality to work around this is beyond me.  Why not just argue that it's really not "magic" but science and the game just calls it "magic" for the benefit of the players because the science is so advanced we can't possibly understand it? I'm being partially facetious, but it's really a funny thing to me to see people just refuse to accept that casters would know of and use the concept of levels.   For some classes, I agree.  As I said before, it's unlikely Barbarians would derive any in-game benefit from being able to communicate each others levels.  For spell casters, it would be exceedingly clear cut and the clearness of the level distinctions would be unavoidable because of the precision of spell durations and distance and the basis under which the classes might be employed.  To deny this is to simply be obstinant.  Add to the fact that the specificity of spell durations and distances would have been known by the discipline for eons.  Wizard guilds would constantly be testing and retesting spells to see that Detect Magic cast by a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level casters today lasted just as long as one cast 300 years ago according to the spell books. The 10th level Wizard would know precisely what level the NPC Wizard was by virtue of the 12th level's Wall of Force would last 12 seconds longer and take up 20 more feet. Seriously Jimlock, how do you explain away so many spells would allow you to know exactly the level of spell casters?  In fact, I'm sure a guild would have a number of markers/tests/physical distance markers for gauging a spell casters level by an exact number.  And why wouldn't they?  Knowing the caster level of a scroll is important as it determine the scrolls cost and ability.  It's irrational to argue that Wizards wouldn't track level precisely.   Not at all.  As as been discussed, some things are abstractions, some things aren't.  Do you think Rangers know the exact difference in ranges of various types of bows?     Is there RAW that says "level" is metagame?  I'm asking, not insinuating.   It's always one's perrogative to play however.  But have you considered that maybe it's less immersive to deny something that would be a natural occurance?  I think a better approach is to look at this on a class basis.  Spells work in a manner that makes it unavoidable for casters to know they have levels...that their power increases in step functions.  The nature of the magic commodities makes knowing spell caster level vitally important to the economy. Is it possible some groups or individuals might not have bothered to determine their level or memorize it?  Sure.  But on the whole, the caster community would be very attuned to the very thing that they depend on for survival.</blockquote>

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