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Message: <blockquote data-quote="empireofchaos" data-source="post: 6761314" data-attributes="member: 6800918">Classes and racesThink I'll be bad and blow this thread up a little bit: <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/devil.png"  class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":devil:" title="Devil    :devil:" data-shortname=":devil:" />So for some, classes are concrete entities in the game, for some they aren't, and for some it depends. It makes for an interesting discussion.But the reason we're even having it is that people either conceptualize class as a behind-the-scenes mechanic that characters in a fantasy world aren't actually aware of, or as a quasi-occupational choice, but not an irreducible part of who the character is.Would we even be having this discussion if someone posed the question "Do Races Have Concrete Meaning in Your Game"?No, we would not. Because everybody (almost) knows that races exist. Characters really are dwarves, hobbits, orcs, dragonborn, and know they are. While for some, characters in-game would never say "I know thieves' cant because I'm a rogue", most would have no trouble saying "I never sleep because I'm an elf".But is the division between real, natural race, and game-mechanical, artificial class so obviously clear-cut?First, going back to OD&D, some classes were races (dwarves, elves, and hobbits). And the complete distinction between class (that which you advance in) and race (that which you start with) didn't become established until racial limits on certain classes were eliminated (now SCAG is bringing race-specific class archetypes back in, too). Some races like Svirfneblin and Duergar gain race-specific abilities as they advance in class level. And the DMG outlines how you can play monsters as characters, and configure racial stats as class features.  Second, the "races" outlined in the PHB are not entirely natural (errr... biological). Half-elves and half-orcs are not distinct groups in and of themselves (the issue is at least highly debatable). They have "racial" abilities, but it's obvious that some abilities are inherited, and some are learned. Elves might not need to sleep, and might be naturally resistant to sleep and charm spells, but surely they learn cantrips (Salvatore actually narrates how this happens for drow during childhood). A parallel in our world might be that literacy is a human racial feature (or will be in the very near future). On top of that, there are tons of discussions dedicated to the topic of whether humans, elves, and orcs are in fact members of one species since its members can interbreed. Tieflings are derived from humans as well. And if we extend the discussion beyond the common PC races - are goblins, hobgoblins and bugbears one race, or several? If this seems beside the point for the current discussion, consider this: the definitions of race and class we use in the game are derived from real-world usage, where most (though not all) in our society regard race as a natural category, but class as a constructed one that most people are less aware of, or regard as being less fundamental. We transpose these concepts into our game, despite the fact in the game, class is an infinitely more important category than race, because, to a much greater extent, it determines what our characters do, and how they interact with other characters. So we are left on the one hand assuming that of course, race has concrete meaning, and determines not only natural abilities, but characters' identity and culture; and, on the other hand, inventing entirely new categories like "character concept" to explain away people's identity as members of a class. I'm not saying that's necessarily wrong, I'm saying the reasons we do this have primarily real-world social, rather than in-game social explanations.And if we think about it, must racial identities be really that important in the game? Clearly, what we used to call demi-humans are pretty well integrated into human society. It's not necessary for dwarves and elves to know their own racial languages, and to follow their own racial pantheons. It's not necessary for all orcs to live with other orcs, goblins with goblins, ogres with ogres. In fact, I get the distinct sense that humanoid hunting bands and war bands are quite mixed (both in terms of overall composition, and in terms of individuals' descent), and don't really make an issue of race in the way we think of it. Just like a lot of hypothetical characters in the posts above, they might just say something like: "I'm not a hobgoblin. I'm a warrior in the Black Spear tribe".</blockquote>

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