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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 6769332" data-attributes="member: 16814">Yes, I ignored those because I felt your point that the existing barbarian fluff matched up with battleragers because you felt that Dwarven clans are representative of fringe, less civilized social structures was sufficient for an individual reply.  To followup to your replay, the defining Dwarven social structure in the Realms (and in most other settings) is the clan. Unless you're postulating that all Dwarves that belong to a clan are uncivilized wildmen, your association fails.   Your strange diversion on my example of how clans can easily be (and are) part of a highly developed civilization by pointing out they don't have to be aside, you're still entirely wrong that the fluff of battleragers being part of a Dwarven clan is coherent with seeing 'civilization [having] no value.'  it is not coherent.But to address your final two points: two is a rehash of the argument we've been having -- that you view fluff as the definition of the class whereas others view it as suggestive. Obviously, I've disagreed strongly on that point in the past and took it as a given that you'd understand my continued failure to be persuaded by it.Your third boils down to accepting a refluff only if the designers write it into a book they sell to you.  I felt that I didn't have anything positive to say about that, so I didn't say.</blockquote>