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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 6776838" data-attributes="member: 6801228">So, when I started reading this thread all the way at the beginning I had a completely different idea what this thread was about. When I first read "Do classes have concrete meanings" the answer was obviously yes, because classes have concrete effects on the world. Level even plays into this btw but that is for the other thread I suppose.For example, over 43 pages a lot of people have said there is no way an NPC could tell anything about a characters class by observing them. This is patently untrue, because the class is tied to specific abilities that have specific effects. A Wizard can only cast Fireball a certain number of times before running out of fireballs to cast. An evoker can create pockets of safety in that fireball, and whether they do it by sucking some of the flames into their mouth and rage screaming to the heavens or they do it by dancing to harp music they both are doing the same thing with the same concrete observable effect. And, as an added bonus, they will each be able to overchannel later on, barring multiclass and assuming pure class progression, and that will have the same concrete end results.If you asked a Barbarian, A fighter and a Paladin to swing at a practice dummy you could observe at higher levels the fighter is hitting more often, but let's assume level 5 and everyone is the same speed. Then ask them to "give it everything they got" the barbarian would rage and deal more damage, the fighter would hit twice as fast as everyone else via action surge and the paladin would deal radiant holy damage via divine smite. Each of these is a concrete effect, observable in the game world that is shared between all people of that class. It turns out though that we are not asking if they have concrete meaning within the game world. We are asking if the names have concrete meaning in the game world. Which is an entirely different problem.Let's do some real-life comparison really fast. Let's say I ask you to bring before me a "gamer". Who would you bring? Would they play table-top pen and pencil games? Video Games? PC Gaming? Board Games like Catan or phone app games like Farmville? Hard-core 70 hr a week players or more casual 3 hr a week players? All of them are "gamers", all of them are completely different, even if they overlap in places.That's the starting problem that I think isn't being addressed very effectively by either side. Just because your character would never walk up and say "I'm a Fighter" doesn't mean the local baron who served in the army isn't able to say "That guy is a Fighter". Even if you two have entirely different ideas of what it means to be a fighter. The baron probably isn't going to call the guy able to summon holy power a fighter, because normal men and women not blessed by the gods can't do that, you have to be something different. However, I enjoy re-fluffing certain things, like the Barbarian. I haven't had a chance to build or play one yet, but if I ever did play a barbarian they wouldn't use "rage" as in "bloodthirsty anger" instead they would do more of a "battle trance" where they let go of the idea of protecting themselves and instead just flew at the enemy with no regard for personal safety. It even still works with the resistance from being able to ignore pain from the trance state, the concept that because the opponent expects you to flinch and you don't meaning their strikes don't land as intended and your increased awareness of the immediate combat allowing you to avoid blows more effectively by "quarter dodging" so your wounds are merely flesh wounds and not organ wounds. I think it fits fine, but it is a very different type of barbarian than anything in the books. More inspired by Japanese anime characters who "rage" in that manner than the berserkers of the Norse. So, concrete meaning within the world. Yes. The name having a concrete meaning? As much as any names ever do in a complex world.</blockquote>

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