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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Arial Black" data-source="post: 6785078" data-attributes="member: 6799649">Agreed, but that is not what I'm arguing against.To be clear, I'm not saying that it's impossible for a DM to make D&D 'class' a real thing in his game! I am saying that:-* if his world is like that, this is because he said so; the PHB certainly doesn't mandate that!* game mechanics are not directly observable, only the results of them in the game world are, but there are so many things that could be affecting what happens that it cannot be certain that they know about D&D classIf 'class' is sometimes observable and sometimes not, then the result is that class is not 'knowable'.The assertion that I'm arguing against is that 'a creature in the game knows that people fall into distinct 'classes', and that these groupings ARE their D&D class'. If you can sometimes tell if someone is, say, a paladin and sometimes you can't, then this demonstrates that they cannot know.Yet again, it's not the rules that did this; it's you!And, once again, it's absurd. It's absurd that the creatures in any particular fantasy world produce a scent that perfectly matches their 'class' as described in the 5E PHB written in OUR world in the early 21st century!It's the other way round: when constructing a proof that 'D&D class is observable', and experiment finds a creature whose class is not observable, then it has been disproved.You can have the creatures in the game group themselves along any lines that they can observe, but they cannot know, without possibility of doubt, what a creature's D&D class is. Therefore, any group of (say) paladins cannot be absolutely certain that every member of that group has levels in the D&D paladin class. They cannot read each others character sheets. There may be some abilities that they can observe, but since those things can be produced in other ways than 'paladin class abilities' then they cannot be sure.Similarly, there may be creatures with levels in the D&D paladin class who are not part of that in game grouping. They may not want to. Other people could not tell, with certainty, that they are D&D paladins; it's just not possible.Look, talking past each other ("yes it is" "no it isn't" "yes it is") is unproductive. Why don't you come up with specific RULES examples (as opposed to a game setting you made up) that prove that a PC of a particular class must be able to be observed in game as having levels in that D&D class. Concrete examples will do more to clarify what we mean.</blockquote>

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