Do creatures really follow the same rules as PCs?

[Asmor]

So this is often bandied about as a major strength of 3rd edition: the fact that monsters follow the same rules as PCs.

You know what? Putting some thought into it, I don't believe they do.

I mean, sure they obey the same algorithms. Dragon(X) gives you BAB=X, AllSaves=2+X/2, etc, just like Cleric(X) gives you BAB=3/4X, WillSave=2+X/2, Ref&FortSaves=X/3, etc.

But that's about where the similarities end, and even then, the numbers aren't actually that tied to the rules.

A monster's natural AC is entirely arbitrary. A monster's ability scores are entirely arbitrary. Even the "X" you use to run the function (i.e. the monster's hit dice) are entirely arbitrary and only loosely, if at all, tied to the monster's "level" (its CR). A monster's racial skill bonuses are entirely arbitrary. A monster's speed is entirely arbitrary. In fact, the only time monsters and PCs are on equal footing is when it comes to feats, and it's easy enough to get around that by giving the monster arbitrary bonus feats or abilities which emulate feats.

Further, PCs get a prescribed set of abilities each level. Monsters get whatever you feel like giving them.

I'm not saying that monsters are cheating or anything along those lines. I'm just saying that it seems naive to me to assert that players and monsters use the same rules.

 

[Anguish]

I hear what you're saying, but it's not actually true. Where a monster's skills differ from a human's, it's because the monster has a racial bonus to that skill. Like say... an elf. Same rule. Where a monster's ability scores differ from a human's, again it's because the monster has racial bonuses or penalties to those abilities, similar to say... a half-orc. Even where the rules are bent a bit and a monster is given a racial bonus feat, it's still reasonable.

Where things get fuzzy these days is monster abilities are vastly varied and so numerous that players don't have access to many of them. If a monster moves out of a threatened square, you expect an AoO because monsters play by the same rules players do. Thing is, that there's probably a monster somewhere that's just immune to AoO. That's it's schtick.

What the idea that players and monsters play by the same rules conveys is more a meta-rule. Once the players figure out a monster has move 60, it has move 60. It doesn't suddenly move 70 and make an attack afterwards. Monsters without spell lists don't pick up dropped scrolls and cast them for fun. The point is that monsters play by the same RULES PCs do, but the details of what abilities they have vary, just like elf rogues have different abilities than wizard half-orcs.

 

[Zurai]

Monsters absolutely play by the same rules as PCs. They get handicaps - free natural armor, at-will SLAs, bonus hit dice, etc - but those handicaps are all within the realm of the rules.

This is the same debate as "The computer cheats!" in computer games. As far as I'm concerned, as long as the computer follows the exact same set of rules as the player (If X then Y), I don't care how high individual variables are.

In short, variables are not rules, they're parameters.

 

[Asmor]

This is the same debate as "The computer cheats!" in computer games. As far as I'm concerned, as long as the computer follows the exact same set of rules as the player (If X then Y), I don't care how high individual variables are.

You may want to re-think your analogy... There are quite a few games where the computer DOES cheat. For example, in the Burnout series (as well as many other racing games), it's a fact that the AI has a rubberband effect where, no matter how much better you are than the AI and how far you should have passed them, it will always be kept right behind you.

 

[kreynolds]

There are quite a few games where the computer DOES cheat.

Baldur's Gate II cheated. Even if you used the editor to make your character immune to death effects, you could still be killed by certain effects. If you used the editor to allow your character to use those certain effects, some NPCs still could not be killed by them. Lame.

 

[Zurai]

You may want to re-think your analogy... There are quite a few games where the computer DOES cheat. For example, in the Burnout series (as well as many other racing games), it's a fact that the AI has a rubberband effect where, no matter how much better you are than the AI and how far you should have passed them, it will always be kept right behind you.

No, my analogy is fine. You might want to re-examine what I said

An example of a "But the AI cheats" complaint that is not valid, in my point of view, is a game where the AI gets extra resources at the start of the game, but must thereafter acquire resources in exactly the same method players do. This is exactly like a handicap in golf (which is, again, an analogy I made in my post).

In your example, the AI does NOT follow the same "If X then Y" rules that the player does. Thus, the AI cheats. Another example of this (using my above resources example) is Empire Earth. In Empire Earth, the computer is given continuous free resources just for being alive; in other words, it never, ever has to gather resources to purchase units or technologies, unlike the player. THAT is what I was referring to.

The OP's question falls into the former category rather than the latter. Monsters have handicaps in the form of natural armor bonuses, save bonuses, bonus hit points, etc - but they still use all those resources by interacting with the exact same set of rules that players do.

Thus, yes, creatures really do follow the same rules as PCs. As it should be. I get really upset when I find out that a game actually cheats - and I get equally upset when I find out that a DM cheats.

YMMV.

 

[Belbarid]

Baldur's Gate II cheated. Even if you used the editor to make your character immune to death effects, you could still be killed by certain effects. If you used the editor to allow your character to use those certain effects, some NPCs still could not be killed by them. Lame.

That awful mess of Pool of Radiance: Ruins of Myth Drannor.

Stormfront Studios came out and said that there were two "d20 rolling" routines. One that rolled normally for monsters, and one that rolled low for PC's.

Such an awful, awful game.