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General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
do CRs seem a bit arbitrary?
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<blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 6558060" data-attributes="member: 2067"><p>Yeah, the way I parsed that was essentially "the nature of D&D as I play it makes it utterly impossible." Because the nature of D&D as a whole makes basically nothing impossible if you want it. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /> </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>First, "options" doesn't necessarily equal "variety." If I have 500 different flavors of "attack roll -> damage -> condition" that is a lot of options, but all the options are, at a high level, the same, which can lead to a feeling of "sameness" even if it's "attack vs. will, fire damage, and dazed" vs. "attack vs. fort, necrotic damage, and teleport myeslf 5 squares." At a tactical level, they are VERY different. At a strategic level, they are rather dully similar. I think we're on the same page about variety of outcome, and I also think that played into the "sameness," but I think it's important to note that more options doesn't necessarily work against that vibe. </p><p></p><p>Second, I question the value of added granularity to the CR system. If we start with 4e as a baseline, I'd ask why that...consistent....play experience is better than a more swingy and variable play experience. What is the benefit that gives to the people enjoying the game? How does it make it fun for them? I know what a more swingy experience brings to my table - more excitement, more engagement, less predictability, more delight - because I worked hard to bring those things back in 4e. About the only virtue I see in a more consistent experience is that it's kind of easier for the DM to predict where the game is going to go, but that's a conflicted virtue - there's a LOT of fun to be had in not knowing exactly where the game is going to go (but having a rough idea). </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It wasn't so easy to ignore 4e's more reliable system, because it had significant ramifications on everything from the powers format to 4e-style ritual use to monster stats - everything was built from the ground up to be math wrapped in a chassis of fluff. The reliability was hard-coded into the very woof and weft of the thing. </p><p></p><p>It doesn't seem too hard to turn 5e's less reliable system into something more reliable - you just use the monster stats table and don't put in specific strengths and weaknesses and pay close attention to the monsters you're using (so that they're not swingy) and the encounter XP budget. </p><p></p><p>And I can see why, in the interest of play experience, they may have gone with a less reliable system intentionally.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="I'm A Banana, post: 6558060, member: 2067"] Yeah, the way I parsed that was essentially "the nature of D&D as I play it makes it utterly impossible." Because the nature of D&D as a whole makes basically nothing impossible if you want it. ;) First, "options" doesn't necessarily equal "variety." If I have 500 different flavors of "attack roll -> damage -> condition" that is a lot of options, but all the options are, at a high level, the same, which can lead to a feeling of "sameness" even if it's "attack vs. will, fire damage, and dazed" vs. "attack vs. fort, necrotic damage, and teleport myeslf 5 squares." At a tactical level, they are VERY different. At a strategic level, they are rather dully similar. I think we're on the same page about variety of outcome, and I also think that played into the "sameness," but I think it's important to note that more options doesn't necessarily work against that vibe. Second, I question the value of added granularity to the CR system. If we start with 4e as a baseline, I'd ask why that...consistent....play experience is better than a more swingy and variable play experience. What is the benefit that gives to the people enjoying the game? How does it make it fun for them? I know what a more swingy experience brings to my table - more excitement, more engagement, less predictability, more delight - because I worked hard to bring those things back in 4e. About the only virtue I see in a more consistent experience is that it's kind of easier for the DM to predict where the game is going to go, but that's a conflicted virtue - there's a LOT of fun to be had in not knowing exactly where the game is going to go (but having a rough idea). It wasn't so easy to ignore 4e's more reliable system, because it had significant ramifications on everything from the powers format to 4e-style ritual use to monster stats - everything was built from the ground up to be math wrapped in a chassis of fluff. The reliability was hard-coded into the very woof and weft of the thing. It doesn't seem too hard to turn 5e's less reliable system into something more reliable - you just use the monster stats table and don't put in specific strengths and weaknesses and pay close attention to the monsters you're using (so that they're not swingy) and the encounter XP budget. And I can see why, in the interest of play experience, they may have gone with a less reliable system intentionally. [/QUOTE]
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