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do CRs seem a bit arbitrary?
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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 6573279" data-attributes="member: 996"><p>I know you're off into analogy land, but I think you're fundamentally missing what 'balance' would mean in the context of a CR system - or I'm fundamentally misinterpreting your analogy. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p>For instance, 3e and 5e both have CR systems. In 3e CR, it's pretty clear that a high-CR monster is going to be tough for a lower-level party to hit - a very high CR will even be tough for to hit for any but the full-BAB members of a same-level party unless they use touch attacks. The reverse is also true: monsters much lower CR than the party will not be useable. So there's a need to keep monster CR relatively close to party level. But, the system's way of building a larger encounter (larger than 1 monster vs the whole party, the default same-level encounter) is to 'break up' that one large monster into two lower-CR ones. Doing this a number of times gets you a large number of too-low CR monsters, and the system fails to deliver a reasonable challenge. The system can also fail to deliver the intended challenge because (as in the title of the thread) the CR can be on the arbitrary side, and a monster can be substantially more or less threatening - even before you take into account how wildly different in ability parties of different compositions or using different strategies can be. So that's a pretty low level of encounter balance.</p><p></p><p>5e also has a CR system. But, thanks to bounded accuracy, a much higher level monster, while it will still stomp the party horribly, can still miss some of the time, and can still be hit by the party a non-trivial proportion of the time, while, by the same token much lower-CR monsters are still able to hit a higher-level party and inflict a little pain on them, making them meaningful in large enough numbers. The CR system gives the DM and exp budget per day based on party size & level, a rating from easy to deadly based on total exp in a single encounter, /and/ a multiplier based on number of monsters vs number of PC in a single encounter that doesn't affect exp reward or budget but /does/ change the difficulty estimate. That greater complexity of encounter design guidelines gives the DM better tools to deliver something closer to the intended level of difficulty than he had in 3e. Again, that's before the crazy of PC - both class mix and madcap tactics - comes into it. And, again, the CR ratings can be a little on the arbitrary side (even relative to 3e, since bounded accuracy leaves them less to be formulaic with). But, the result is still an improvement in encounter balance. </p><p></p><p>TL<img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite8" alt=":D" title="Big grin :D" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":D" />R: that a badly-balanced CR system starts out broken doesn't mean it "doesn't break as easily" as a better-balanced one.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 6573279, member: 996"] I know you're off into analogy land, but I think you're fundamentally missing what 'balance' would mean in the context of a CR system - or I'm fundamentally misinterpreting your analogy. ;) For instance, 3e and 5e both have CR systems. In 3e CR, it's pretty clear that a high-CR monster is going to be tough for a lower-level party to hit - a very high CR will even be tough for to hit for any but the full-BAB members of a same-level party unless they use touch attacks. The reverse is also true: monsters much lower CR than the party will not be useable. So there's a need to keep monster CR relatively close to party level. But, the system's way of building a larger encounter (larger than 1 monster vs the whole party, the default same-level encounter) is to 'break up' that one large monster into two lower-CR ones. Doing this a number of times gets you a large number of too-low CR monsters, and the system fails to deliver a reasonable challenge. The system can also fail to deliver the intended challenge because (as in the title of the thread) the CR can be on the arbitrary side, and a monster can be substantially more or less threatening - even before you take into account how wildly different in ability parties of different compositions or using different strategies can be. So that's a pretty low level of encounter balance. 5e also has a CR system. But, thanks to bounded accuracy, a much higher level monster, while it will still stomp the party horribly, can still miss some of the time, and can still be hit by the party a non-trivial proportion of the time, while, by the same token much lower-CR monsters are still able to hit a higher-level party and inflict a little pain on them, making them meaningful in large enough numbers. The CR system gives the DM and exp budget per day based on party size & level, a rating from easy to deadly based on total exp in a single encounter, /and/ a multiplier based on number of monsters vs number of PC in a single encounter that doesn't affect exp reward or budget but /does/ change the difficulty estimate. That greater complexity of encounter design guidelines gives the DM better tools to deliver something closer to the intended level of difficulty than he had in 3e. Again, that's before the crazy of PC - both class mix and madcap tactics - comes into it. And, again, the CR ratings can be a little on the arbitrary side (even relative to 3e, since bounded accuracy leaves them less to be formulaic with). But, the result is still an improvement in encounter balance. TL:DR: that a badly-balanced CR system starts out broken doesn't mean it "doesn't break as easily" as a better-balanced one. [/QUOTE]
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