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Community
General Tabletop Discussion
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do CRs seem a bit arbitrary?
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<blockquote data-quote="FormerlyHemlock" data-source="post: 6573974" data-attributes="member: 6787650"><p>Okay, we've got a genuine disagreement then. You think average mixed party will improve as much against Banshees by going from 5th to 8th as the Banshees do from getting more Banshees (twice as much XP, whatever that works out to be). I on the other hand look at the factors you list (initiative increase, possible spell DC boost from ASI, possible saving throw boost from ASI) and see them as negligible factors (+10%-25% maybe) compared to the 100% increase in Banshee. Since we're both interested in this question, do you want to collaborate on a scenario to test this?</p><p></p><p>Dropping to 0 HP doesn't stabilize you except in the rare case where the attack says you are automatically stable. (E.g. nonlethal attacks on page 198 of PHB, "the creature falls unconscious <em>and is stable</em>," emphasis added.) Otherwise page 197 of the PHB dictates that you must make death checks at the start of each of your turns. Besides, it's a Banshee's <em>death wail. </em>If it autostabilized you it would be a stun wail, and then Banshees wouldn't be so famous. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p><span style="color: #000000"></span></p><p><span style="color: #000000"></span></p><p><span style="color: #000000">You're conflating two of my arguments:</span></p><p><span style="color: #000000"></span></p><p><span style="color: #000000">1.) CR is kind of broken, since mathematically it's essentially just a measure of the 3/2 power of DPR and HP, meaning that anything which is dangerous for something other than DR won't be measure correctly by it.</span></p><p><span style="color: #000000">2.) CR is largely ignorable in 5E, since tactics and situation tend to dominate.</span></p><p><span style="color: #000000"></span></p><p><span style="color: #000000">Sunlight is about factor #2, and I agree with you that that is divorced from CR and is part of encounter difficulty. The Banshee's wail and visage are more about #1.</span></p><p><span style="color: #000000"></span></p><p><span style="color: #000000">CR is so bad in 5E that you're IMO better off mostly ignoring it and just focusing on environmental factors and raw monster abilities. The encounter tables will give you a precise number N of Banshees whom the 5 8th level PCs can face in the crypts and still defeat. (N=4, 4 Banshees is a Hard fight for them.) The encounter tables will also tell you that N+1 Banshees is Deadly in the Crypts, but Hard in the sunlight above the crypts (reduce difficulty by 1 step for favorable environment). My judgment tells me that one of both of these ratings is wrong. The one in sunlight is definitely wrong (it's more like fighting 10 zombies than 5 Banshees, and even 22 zombies would steal be an Easy fight even by encounter building rules). The one in the crypts is probably wrong, possible TPK, but it's difficult to evaluate in isolation except to say that even (<em>or </em></span><em>especially!</em><span style="color: #000000">) </span><span style="color: #000000">a tactically-smart party would far rather face 9 Ogres in the crypts below the city (10,125 XP) than 4 Banshees (8,800 XP). The Banshees are worse. If that's non-obvious to anyone I would gladly run the encounter for you.</span></p><p><span style="color: #000000"></span></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="FormerlyHemlock, post: 6573974, member: 6787650"] Okay, we've got a genuine disagreement then. You think average mixed party will improve as much against Banshees by going from 5th to 8th as the Banshees do from getting more Banshees (twice as much XP, whatever that works out to be). I on the other hand look at the factors you list (initiative increase, possible spell DC boost from ASI, possible saving throw boost from ASI) and see them as negligible factors (+10%-25% maybe) compared to the 100% increase in Banshee. Since we're both interested in this question, do you want to collaborate on a scenario to test this? Dropping to 0 HP doesn't stabilize you except in the rare case where the attack says you are automatically stable. (E.g. nonlethal attacks on page 198 of PHB, "the creature falls unconscious [I]and is stable[/I]," emphasis added.) Otherwise page 197 of the PHB dictates that you must make death checks at the start of each of your turns. Besides, it's a Banshee's [I]death wail. [/I]If it autostabilized you it would be a stun wail, and then Banshees wouldn't be so famous. :) [COLOR=#000000] You're conflating two of my arguments: 1.) CR is kind of broken, since mathematically it's essentially just a measure of the 3/2 power of DPR and HP, meaning that anything which is dangerous for something other than DR won't be measure correctly by it. 2.) CR is largely ignorable in 5E, since tactics and situation tend to dominate. Sunlight is about factor #2, and I agree with you that that is divorced from CR and is part of encounter difficulty. The Banshee's wail and visage are more about #1. CR is so bad in 5E that you're IMO better off mostly ignoring it and just focusing on environmental factors and raw monster abilities. The encounter tables will give you a precise number N of Banshees whom the 5 8th level PCs can face in the crypts and still defeat. (N=4, 4 Banshees is a Hard fight for them.) The encounter tables will also tell you that N+1 Banshees is Deadly in the Crypts, but Hard in the sunlight above the crypts (reduce difficulty by 1 step for favorable environment). My judgment tells me that one of both of these ratings is wrong. The one in sunlight is definitely wrong (it's more like fighting 10 zombies than 5 Banshees, and even 22 zombies would steal be an Easy fight even by encounter building rules). The one in the crypts is probably wrong, possible TPK, but it's difficult to evaluate in isolation except to say that even ([I]or [/I][/COLOR][I]especially![/I][COLOR=#000000]) [/COLOR][COLOR=#000000]a tactically-smart party would far rather face 9 Ogres in the crypts below the city (10,125 XP) than 4 Banshees (8,800 XP). The Banshees are worse. If that's non-obvious to anyone I would gladly run the encounter for you. [/COLOR] [/QUOTE]
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