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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 6919580" data-attributes="member: 16814">I, personally, think it's very odd if the average AC you're facing at level 8 is AC 16.  That puts optimized characters at a 50% hit rate, and that's not what the game's designed for.  Also, that would mean that you're doing a lot of fighting single monsters as a CR 8 against a party of 4 8th level characters is a medium challenge.  2 are a deadly one.  4 CR 2 critters is also a medium challenge, and have ACs much lower than 16.  I don't think your argument that 8th level means average AC 16 enemies holds much water.But, yes, the floors are lower for non-archery style characters.  That's a true statement.  I went with SS because I have a character in my game that fit that bill precisely, and I knew the point stood and came up often enough to matter -- that the penalty was moot for low AC (ie, 12 and lower) critters.Not if you add in Bless, or a Bard.  Or advantage.  Point is, that 2+attack bonus is the floor against which you gain no benefit from bonuses (you gain a slight one from advantage).  So long as the enemies are close to 2+attack bonus, using the -5/+10 gains full use from any buffs including advantage.  If the AC you're aiming at is higher than 2+attack bonus, the advantage drops off -- for instance, at 3+attack bonus, you only ever get a +1 benefit from any bonus die or effect, but the -5 guy is still getting all of it.  If you both roll 4 on the Bless die, your chance to hit increases by 5%, their's increases by 20%.Depending on the AC and the bonus dice, you can completely erase the -5 penalty without ever giving any advantage to a non-SS/GWM character.  So, the point that you can erase the penalty exists, and it's not much of a corner case.  Bard's get d6's right off the bat.</blockquote>

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