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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Volaran" data-source="post: 5439443" data-attributes="member: 592">No dispute on the phrasing there.  I checked the 3.0 and 3.5 srds as well.  The phrasing is identical for 3.5, and is very similar for 3.0.  I admit that I do have trouble picturing a situation where a familiar would normally have a higher HD than its Master.  Possibly where improved familiars have a base of 2-4 HD, and the master has acquired some permanent negative levels.  For the most part though, I consider this more of an oddity of phrasing that has not been corrected across two revisions of the game. This, I do dispute.  First, I would note that the casters capable of acquiring familiars (the wizard, the sorcerer, and the current beta version of the magus) all have d6 or d8 hit dice, rather than the d4 you have indicated.  Also, the base familiars are animals with a fractional CR, not a partial hit die.  They all have one hit die in their Bestiary listings.Having a good save (in this case, fortitude and reflex) does not indicate that it increases with every racial hit die.  A good racial save starts at +2 at the first hit die, and then increases with every even hit die.  However, since familiars don't gain 'real' hit dice as standard animals or magical beasts, they will be using their master's Will saves most likely from level 1, and their master's Fort and Reflex saves after level 9 (when the wizard's and sorcerer's base Fort and Reflex saves increase to +3).  This may vary slightly with Improved Familiars. Next, let me draw your attention to the first paragraph in the familiar section:The familiar is a basic animal when summoned.  You cannot bind a 3HD hawk as a familiar for example.  As the bolded section indicates, all the qualities of the base animal remain unchanged, and it becomes a magical animal for the purposes of effects that depend on type.  This is likely due to the intelligence increase tied to the master's level, and as noted, only refers to game effects that depend on type (eg. charm animal does not affect the familiar, but charm monster does, or an animal bane weapon would not affect the familiar, but a magic beast bane weapon would).  It makes no reference to advancing the familiar as a magical beast, but it does then lead to an entire section devoted to explaining how the familiar advances along with its master.Now, I should note that a specific exception is made in the Improved Familiar feat, as many of them are outsiders, fey, etc:My assertion is not that Pathfinder has changed the familiar rules from 3.5, or that this is something that has errata.  I believe it would be inelegant design to have a player be required to the read the section on magical beasts in order to understand how familiars work.  The relevant rules for familiars are contained in the appropriate animal or creature description, in the familiar section itself and in the Improved Familiar feat.  This has not changed from 3.5, and if you were using this interpretation in previous versions of the game, I would also suggest you were incorrect.Moreover, as noted above, the opening paragraph for the familiar section describes the purposes for which a familiar is considered a magical beast, and the Improved Familiar feat described additional type exceptions.A familiar essentially has a 'virtual hit die', rather than a d10, since all effects related to hit dice are determined by the master's level rather than its own as things progress.  The first hit die of the base creature is a d10.  Even if we were to follow your logic that suggests familiars can gain class levels, that would also mean the d10 hit die was not universal.Correct, though it should be noted that Animals also have a good Fortitude and Reflex save, so that does not change.  The exact text is as follows:As you can see, this section also notes the familiar base saving throw bonuses for a 1 hit die animal or magical beast.  Somewhat frustratingly, an exception is not made for Improved Familiars, but I feel it is a reasonable extrapolation to use the base saving throws for the Improved Familiar's as appropriate to their creature type, and their hit dice at the time they became a familiar.Also not defined in the familiar rules. Again, as a familiar does not improve in its actual hit die, so it has the skill ranks of the base creature (whether a 1HD animal, or the appropriate Improved Familiar).  The references to class skills indicate which skills possessed by the base animal, or the master are considered for class skill bonuses.  For example, even if the familiar has no ranks of its own in Swim, if its master does, the familiar can add the +3 class skill bonus.Another telling sign here is that the familiar section includes no mention of acquiring feats, which should certainly be the case if the familiar gained 'real' hit dice rather than 'virtual' hit dice.Improved Familiars do not provide a special ability or skill bonus.I was unable to find an example of this in the Monster Advancement section (which does not contain the word 'Familiar'), the Improved Familiar feat, or the general section on familiars.I understand that you believe familiars to be standard magical beasts, but the opening paragraph of the Familiars section clearly states the specific way familiars are treated as magical beasts, not that they fully advance as magical beasts.It does make sense to consider adapting the Improved Familiar feat to allow a template.  Certainly that is essentially what is being done for things like the fiendish/celestial hawk, etc.  I feel this is a reasonable extrapolation, as long as the template keeps the familiar's power level in the general area of the creatures available as improved familiars at caster level 3, 5 and 7.  For any template that increased power beyond this, I would consider some sort of follow up feat (Greater Familiar, etc.), but that is up to designers, or individual GMs.It seems more reasonable to me to have this be a special cohort operating under the Leadership feat.  Essentially, what you are describing is an awakened animal gaining class levels.  That seems reasonable to me.However, an awakened animal gaining class levels and full familiar benefits is potentially very valuable.  Certainly it would be worth more than a single feat (in my opinion).  I'm not sure I would suggest this be included in the game as a default, but as a GM, if a player came to me and suggested this, I would require them to take both Improved Familiar and Leadership.  Or at least, that is my initial reaction.In general, I should note that the experience rules are an abstract that  apply to PCs in general (though the Leadership feat specifically mentions experience as it applies to cohorts), rather than every NPC and creature encountered.  Even if I were to except your idea of familiars advancing as magical beasts, magical beasts don't advance through experience points unless they are PCs (or cohorts, etc.).  Certainly an NPC that is high level can be assumed to have gone through a lot to get there, but a particularly large and terrible basilisk (to pull a random example) may just represent a particularly impressive specimen by birth.Racial Hit Dice are not equal to Class levels, and are not earned in the same fashion.Your example suggests the idea of unassigned experience points if the familiar/cohort would not be able to gain in power further until its master does.  This contradicts the general rules for cohorts, who simply stay at 1 experience point short of their level gain.  If you were to allow familiar/cohorts as a house rule, I would not suggest making them an exception to this by allowing them to stockpile 'unused' experience.Keep in mind that cohorts don't earn experience separately either.  You normally divide the cohort's level by your character's level, and then multiply the result by the amount of experience awarded to your character.Back to the original topic, I have a suggestion.  I have taken a cursory glace a number of the Paizo adventure paths, and have not been able to find a single example of an NPC with a familiar that has been advanced as a magical beast in the way you describe.  If you can find an example of an NPC in a Paizo adventure (or even a WotC adventure from the 3.5 or 3.0 days) with a familiar that has been advanced by hit dice as a magical beast in exactly the way you describe, I will certainly be happy to take a look at it.Until then, I may check this thread, but I don't intend to respond in depth like this again.  This response took too long to type for me to do it again.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

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