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Message: <blockquote data-quote="ruleslawyer" data-source="post: 1946049" data-attributes="member: 1757">The rules for epic are in the sidebar at p.25, and despite substantial back-and-forth on this topic, they haven't materially changed. In short, the rules are as follows:1) Regardless of racial HD and/or class levels, a creature with an ECL of 21 or higher is considered "epic" for purposes of taking epic feats and PrCs. ("Epic" skill uses are not limited to epic characters, and anyone with the requisite skill mods can use them. If I'm a 1st-level character who gets a +100 circumstance bonus to Balance checks by the will of the Great God Oozlebah, I can walk on clouds too!)2) A creature with a character level (racial HD + class levels) of 21 or higher uses the EAB and epic save bonus progressions for any class levels (NOT racial HD) that are gained once its character level is above 20. Thus, a storm giant (19 HD) Ftr1 gains +1 BAB and +2 Fort/+0 Ref/+0 Will saves from its fighter level (its 20th character level) as normal, but begins EAB and epic save progression immediately upon acquiring its 2nd fighter level (its 21st character level).The +1 ability point/4 HD or levels is not an epic vs. non-epic issue; an advanced creature always gets those, regardless of whether it's being advanced from 10 HD to 20 HD or 20 HD to 40 HD.</blockquote>