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<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 8477236" data-attributes="member: 6696971">Quick thought as I was just talking to some buddies about this.I think the focus on PC death is a bit amiss here.&nbsp; PC death is often the 'least bad fate.&quot;In Dogs in the Vineyard, you might be playing a PC who lost their backstory/initiation conflict (this is a player-authored Kicker where the player authors the situation and the GM plays the foil...and it is set up for the PC to lose...but they don't always lose) with addiction or the legacy of their father or their relationship with a particular Sin of The Faith or their ability to detect and defeat sorcery...whatever (something important).&nbsp; In those cases, the player typically has this personal &quot;win con&quot; for their character to overcome this backstory loss.They might play 12 sessions, trying desperately to scratch and claw their PC to absolution or redemption or healing or comeupance (of another).&nbsp; It_is_a_struggle.They don't overcome it.&nbsp; They just bear witness to the struggle and the coming to terms with the reality that sometimes absolution, redemption, healing, comeupance just ain't in the cards (despite your best efforts).&nbsp; Its brutal.However, there is another way that its different.&nbsp; As bad as that sounds, there is an interesting level of closure to this scenario (the experience of the journey of struggle and succumbing loss...but ultimately deeply experiencing who your PC is within that crucible) which doesn't exist in a quick (game-speaking) death by fiery breath weapon.So its distinctly worse than PC death...but distinctly more intimate...and the journey (and how front-and-center that journey is and how in-charge you are of it) nets more closure across the population of PC losses (comparing, say, deaths in D&amp;D and non-death attrition in a game like Dogs in the Vineyard, Torchbearer, or My Life With Master).</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 8477236, member: 6696971"] Quick thought as I was just talking to some buddies about this. I think the focus on PC death is a bit amiss here. PC death is often the 'least bad fate." In Dogs in the Vineyard, you might be playing a PC who lost their backstory/initiation conflict (this is a player-authored Kicker where the player authors the situation and the GM plays the foil...and it is set up for the PC to lose...but they don't always lose) with addiction or the legacy of their father or their relationship with a particular Sin of The Faith or their ability to detect and defeat sorcery...whatever (something important). In those cases, the player typically has this personal "win con" for their character to overcome this backstory loss. They might play 12 sessions, trying desperately to scratch and claw their PC to absolution or redemption or healing or comeupance (of another). It_is_a_struggle. They don't overcome it. They just bear witness to the struggle and the coming to terms with the reality that sometimes absolution, redemption, healing, comeupance just ain't in the cards (despite your best efforts). Its brutal. However, there is another way that its different. As bad as that sounds, there is an interesting level of closure to this scenario (the experience of the journey of struggle and succumbing loss...but ultimately deeply experiencing who your PC is within that crucible) which doesn't exist in a quick (game-speaking) death by fiery breath weapon. So its distinctly worse than PC death...but distinctly more intimate...and the journey (and how front-and-center that journey is and how in-charge you are of it) nets more closure across the population of PC losses (comparing, say, deaths in D&D and non-death attrition in a game like Dogs in the Vineyard, Torchbearer, or My Life With Master). [/QUOTE]

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