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<blockquote data-quote="Cadence" data-source="post: 8069428" data-attributes="member: 6701124">I think in some games it's the characters are competing against the world (the DM) with no particular expectation of any of them becoming heroes (Call of Cthulhu &amp; Paranoia ?).In others I think the assumption is that the characters are actively on their way to most likely become heroes with the DM as facilitator of their legendary tale (13th age with the &quot;Meaningful Death Rule&quot; &amp; Fate?).In old D&amp;D, didn't Gygax also talk about not making it too hard on them?&nbsp; I don't think the goals of presenting a setting and a story and leaving it to the players were meant to contradict the goal of them (hopefully) becoming heroes of the story.&nbsp; They all set off from the metaphorical Rivendell, we hope they'll all become heroes, and but some of them would probably (in 1e, 2e, and B/X anyway) fall along the way.&nbsp;&nbsp; Trying to think back to the 1980s, it feels like the difference was that for the first few levels your odds of dying in the world were vastly bigger than they are today, but once we made it past that I don't remember it being particularly more deadly than the games that came after.&nbsp; Given the increased effort it feels like players put into making their characters backgrounds in some cases, I'm not sure I mind them starting off today at what would have been 3rd level in the old days.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Cadence, post: 8069428, member: 6701124"] I think in some games it's the characters are competing against the world (the DM) with no particular expectation of any of them becoming heroes (Call of Cthulhu & Paranoia ?). In others I think the assumption is that the characters are actively on their way to most likely become heroes with the DM as facilitator of their legendary tale (13th age with the "Meaningful Death Rule" & Fate?). In old D&D, didn't Gygax also talk about not making it too hard on them? I don't think the goals of presenting a setting and a story and leaving it to the players were meant to contradict the goal of them (hopefully) becoming heroes of the story. They all set off from the metaphorical Rivendell, we hope they'll all become heroes, and but some of them would probably (in 1e, 2e, and B/X anyway) fall along the way. Trying to think back to the 1980s, it feels like the difference was that for the first few levels your odds of dying in the world were vastly bigger than they are today, but once we made it past that I don't remember it being particularly more deadly than the games that came after. Given the increased effort it feels like players put into making their characters backgrounds in some cases, I'm not sure I mind them starting off today at what would have been 3rd level in the old days. [/QUOTE]

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